Debunking myth of baseball's demise

[mintacular]

Screw baseball, it's the only major sport without a cap and small market teams like Pittsburgh are SCREWED year after year trying to compete with large market teams with x10 the payroll. Until that get fixes MLB deserves every ounce of negative media publicity...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Screw baseball, it's the only major sport without a cap and small market teams like Pittsburgh are SCREWED year after year trying to compete with large market teams with x10 the payroll. Until that get fixes MLB deserves every ounce of negative media publicity...

Padres have essentially the same payroll as the Pirates. Maybe it's the organization.

[chaddurbin]

the pirates front office were bad there for awhile...but imo they finally have some capable people upstair starting to turn around the team.

caple is being overly harsh on the baseball critics (and exaggerate on some points to make his case). sold tickets/gate receipts/announced attendances are 3 separate things in sports, and even more so in baseball. ironic thing is pirates with their horrible on-field performance is probably making more money than some bigger market teams with revenue sharing/luxury tax thing.

[smtjoy]

I dont believe baseball is doomed but imo its system is horrible compared to leagues with a salary cap. In the NFL with the teams salaries caped it really gets down to having a great coach, good drafting/free agents and the right mix of players both vets and rookies vs. MLB where teams like the Yankees can cover up in drafting mistakes/etc by paying top dollar for the top 3 free agents each year to fill those gaps. That leaves the teams who lost those players badly hurt in future years because they simply could not match the buying power of the better funded teams. This is how normal businesses beat their competition and become market leaders but has no place in a league where competitive balance is important.

While this year is shaping up to be the year that spending didnt matter, lets see in 1-3 years when most of these players are free agents and the teams cant afford to keep them. There is no way for a small market team to stay at the top when they cant keep their talent. I would like to see a chart for the last 10 years of payroll salaries vs wins.

I remember when the Pirates were the team to beat in the mid 80's but then they lost Bonilla, Bonds, Drabek and others to free agency and have not won since. The Pirates organization deserves a lot of the blame for the losing, they have sucked, thats for sure but they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed and even if they do have a year they make a run, they have little to no chance of staying on top simply by the fact they cant resign any stars they have. The amount of top talent the pirates have lost to free agency over the last 10 years is sad.

The only real chance the Pirates have of being a contender on a yearly basis is the day they get a new billion dollar owner who only cares about winning and can eat the losses to build up the team and farm systems.

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

The Pirates organization deserves a lot of the blame for the losing, they have sucked, thats for sure but they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed and even if they do have a year they make a run, they have little to no chance of staying on top simply by the fact they cant resign any stars they have. The amount of top talent the pirates have lost to free agency over the last 10 years is sad.

The only real chance the Pirates have of being a contender on a yearly basis is the day they get a new billion dollar owner who only cares about winning and can eat the losses to build up the team and farm systems.

Did you read my previous post about how the current Pirates ownership has purposely pursued a strategy of losing in order to pocket the revenue sharing money they get from rich teams? They take in more from revenue sharing than they spend on their entire payroll. This isn't sad, its a crime against Pirates fans.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't use the Pirates as an example for why MLB needs reform, they are about the least sympathetic team out there.

[smtjoy]

Sorry I was typing when you wrote those comments. I agree that its very likely they are losing on purpose currently but prior to the current revenue sharing the pirates were still trying to win but losing big money and losing their best players.

That said how can anyone think the current system is fine when a team makes more money losing than even trying.

One thing that gets over looked with a cap is that in most leagues it forces teams to spend a certain amount, without it in years past teams like the Lions, Bengals etc would be doing the same thing by not spending and just keeping the profits.

[jabiloxi]

Football seems to be easily corrupted do to the officiating and rules etc. Wouldn't want my kids playing it do to health problems.

Baseball, I really like, but only one team. Its not something i enjoy necessarily watching unless its the A's. Although I love playing both sports with friends or on teams.

Basketball- I'll catch the replays. Not too interested.

Hockey- Please let me get front row tickets by the glass to ANY game come this season. By far for my family its been the best sporting experience I have ever witnessed. I will do almost anything for Stanley Cup Playoff tickets.

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Screw baseball, it's the only major sport without a cap and small market teams like Pittsburgh are SCREWED year after year trying to compete with large market teams with x10 the payroll. Until that get fixes MLB deserves every ounce of negative media publicity...

Many arguments could be made about baseball's problems and needed reforms, but I wouldn't use the Pirates as your sympathy case. It has been well-documented in recent months how the Pirates ownership has been taking all of that revenue-sharing welfare from the richer teams and instead of spending it to improve the team, sticking it in the owners pockets.

In fact, documents leaked to the Associated Press suggest that the woeful Pittsburgh Pirates might have pursued a strategy of losing in order to maximize the team's profitability in the last three seasons.

As I was saying, you may want to make the same argument, but you won't get much sympathy from me for the current group of dirtbags running the Pirates.


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/pitts...iggest-problem

http://deadspin.com/5615096/mlb-conf...-to-see-part-1

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...economy/61921/

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

In fact, documents leaked to the Associated Press suggest that the woeful Pittsburgh Pirates might have pursued a strategy of losing in order to maximize the team's profitability in the last three seasons.

As I was saying, you may want to make the same argument, but you won't get much sympathy from me for the current group of dirtbags running the Pirates.

same case with those damn carpet-bagging mccourts here in la. they've racked up about 650mil in debt running the team (avg mlb about 150-250mil) while taking out $50mil cash to buy multiple properties. they create organizations to pay their children millions a year, charities that have outrageous overhead and operational costs, charges the dodgers millions every year to rent dodgers stadium (yes they own both), etc etc.

bud selig knew all this going in and he still let these bastards buy the team with no capital and no money while bypassing other more qualified groups. if anything bud selig is ruining baseball.

[M's_Fan]

No doubt the McCourts are vey high on the dirt-bag owner list. I still can't believe Selig and MLB let those two own the Dodgers. They bought the team with borrowed money and have been looting the team ever since. A great article on this in bloomberg/businessweek:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2054590968.htm

[chaddurbin]

IF you can get in (big if), there's no easier business in sports than being a small-market mlb owner. every year you're getting a big chunk of money from revenue sharing and luxury tax w/o even doing anything. as bill james, billy beane, theo epstein have shown, if you can get a sabermetric-friendly GM and a competent staff that's familiar with the modern measurables like WARs/VORPs/FIP/dERA/UZR etc you're already ahead of the curve. if you draft well and have a good minor league system you can keep churning out quality players at a controlled cost, even taking away some of their FA years with a pre-arb long-term discount contract. no need to overspend on FA busts you see bigger market teams make every year. once they hit their FA years you can always play the small-market team card and trade away for prospects and start over.

i'm oversimplifying it...but the model is there. plenty of teams out there don't even bother with the on-field product and they're still banking.

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Screw baseball, it's the only major sport without a cap and small market teams like Pittsburgh are SCREWED year after year trying to compete with large market teams with x10 the payroll. Until that get fixes MLB deserves every ounce of negative media publicity...

The A's made it to the playoffs a few years on a low payroll and the Marlins have done pretty good at times with no payroll. I can live with a salary cap IF there is also a minimum salary cap to go with it.

[tbob]

Don't forget the Twins. Their payroll is up this year but year after year after year they are solid and have either won or finished runner-up in their division every year of the last decade. Even when they were at the bottom of the food chain, payroll-wise, they have been competitive.
P.S. They are going to be a dangerous dark horse this post season, even without Morneau.

[bh3443]

Honestly, I just can't get into watching games these days. In the last decade, my interest in BB has been lost. I watch the World Series, but no more are the days when I watch every game and follow every team.
I love Baseball, but old Baseball. I prefer to watch clips/documentaries of the old days on youtube.com!
Why has this happened to me? It started with the strike year and I started getting fed-up with the announcers and then the media's bashing of BB, and finally the steroid fiasco was the last straw. Another thing I detest is the sports radio talk shows bashing the Red Sox whether they win or lose.
Baseball will always be here. The game needs to change something.
I'll always love the sport, but for me, it's the love of the cards!
Like I said, this is just the opinion of one 50 year old fan!

[David W]

My observations.

Baseball is the best sport to see live at the stadium. It is the worst sport to watch on television. Hence, stadium attendance is bigger than ever, and TV ratings stink. The new ballparks are fan friendly, and nice. The old ball parks are nostalgic.

The 1994 player strike hurt bad. I was a huge fan, several fantasy baseball leagues, etc..... but quit following it closely for 10 years.

There is no need to watch the games on TV, when you have Baseball Tonight to show you the highlights. In Northern Indiana on dish network, all games during the week featuring Tigers, Cubs, White Sox, Cardinals, Reds, Indians are blacked out on the dish. Why is that? We are not in any of those teams media markets.

Yankees games dominating the ESPN televised games.

Loss of the young athlete to other sports, and starting the WS games way to late for us Eastern time zone people to watch, let alone letting school kids watch.

[celoknob]

Because of the recent investigations, there needs to be more assurance that revenue sharing money goes into at least trying to produce good teams.
With that said and the examples that some small market teams have had some success--the Twins for instance--there are still problems.

The Twins were somehow able to sign Joe Mauer longterm, maybe because they knew attendance would be high with the new stadium. However, most small market teams cannot keep their superstars. I am a Reds fan. I know that as soon as Votto is a free agent he will likely go to one of the handful of teams that can afford him. That really takes away from enjoying the game and the loyalty that goes with it.

I fully understand that small market teams will always have a disadvantage but it stinks when these teams cannot at least hold on to their superstars that developed through their own systems. These are the players that kids associate with their teams. Yes, there is always new talent coming up but I don't like all the established stars gravitating to 5 or 6 teams.

[JasonL]

it could use more fights.
the sissy fights that break out are an embarassment. If there was a return to the hard-nosed tough-guy stuff circa the deadball era ballgames, we might have more interest in it. The friendly pushing that goes on is draining the competitive fire from the game, and is a direct result of the money and free agency dissolving any real hardcore rivalries.

I guarantee that if we saw a few fights each year like the hurt that Eddie Mathews put on Frank Robinson in 1959(I think ?) after a slide into third base, this sport would get a bump...

I don't condone violence, per se, but I'm just saying the "edginess" is missing/gone.