Insights into probable T206 uncut sheets

[canjond]

Maybe it was the Collins batting?

[cfc1909]

I am 99% sure that Sweet Cap 649 is a 34 card sub set with the 649 overprint bar covering factory 30.
There is a 1% chance I am wrong and will offer $200 if someone can produce a 35th card. Not a scan an actual card.
I believe the card in question is Nicholls hands on knees-I do not believe this card exist with Sweet Cap 649.

Also as far as sheets go I would think with all the 206s with the name at the top the cards have the same player vertical and probably 34 or 68 different players across.
With the millions of 206s around I would think they were printed in large sheets, at least bigger than 24. Just my opinion not fact.

Sweet Cap 649 = 34
Hindu south =34
Coupon 1 = 68

Also if there are 12 150 only cards-does that count Wagner or Magie?
They are 150 only.

[Abravefan11]

The magic number for the T206 sheets is not 48 but rather 34. The evidence to back that up is strong.

The Southern League group was 48 however only 34 were printed in the initial run of the Brown Hindu set.

The Brown Hindu set has a confirmed number of 102 total. 34 x 3 = 102

The Coupon Type 1 set has a total of 68. 34 x 2 = 68

The Sweet Caporal No. 649 set has 34 cards.

Other backs will not be as equally divisible by 34 as they were run multiple times allowing for different combinations of front images on the sheets.

Ted’s example above does not account for miscuts we have seen with the same players name on the top of a card as it should be on the bottom. Miscuts with the same name printed on top are more prevalent than those with a different name than should be on the bottom which shows that multiple images were printed top to bottom and then the next player.

To date there has been no evidence of images duplicated left to right or printed horizontally to the vertical cards on the sheet.

If Ted is correct on the 12 card width than the sheets would comprise 34 images printed 6 times each for a total of 204 per sheet.

[mkdltn]

I am not sure about the 19 inch press track measurement. That might be the measurement for a proving press.

My research leads me to believe that a HOE NO.4 or HOE NO.5 flatbed stop cylinder lithographic press was likely used to produce the T cards. I found an article in an electrical engineering magazine from 1897 describing the new facility that ALC moved into after consolidation. This is approximately 12 years before production of the T206 cards. On the picture of the sixth floor layout posted below there are 30 lithographic presses. I believe the article mentions that this is one of three floors filled with presses. At the time a HOE NO.4 press would cost anywhere from 3000 to 5000 dollars. That would be a capital investment of 120,000 1897 dollars, That is very roughly about 3 and a half million dollars in todays money. (That is very much an approximation because the inflation calculator only goes back to 1914) the point being that I think that ALC would have squeezed every bit of use out those presses and to think that they would still be in functioning 12 to 15 years after installation is not beyond possibility.

The bed of the HOE presses is also posted in image 3. these dimensions lead me to believe that the sheets could have been much likely larger than you would think. The HOE No. 5 could use a 36x52 in stone or plate. Schmidt litho also used similar presses.

[martin neal]

This info may be of some use to the braintrust of Net 54. Hopefully, it will be for the T205 collectors and maybe it can shed some light on both the T205 and T206 production process. I once purchased a large collection of 167
T205s, 20 T210s and nearly 500 T206s. I was told that the collection came from a collector who amassed these cards during the time they were being released. The T206s seemed to be a collection of someone who was trying to put the set together, the T210s were all from the series 2 and series 8. However, the T205s contained a high concentration of duplicates. I won't make any assumptions, but it might show which T205s were printed on a single sheet and if there is a correlation between the T205 and T206 printing process, someone may gain some insight on how many T206s were printed on a T206 sheet. 167 cards with only 80 players represented.

T205s

3 Austins
1 Barry
3 Bates
2 Becker
3 Bell
3 Bridwell
5 Mordacai Brown
2 Carrigan
3 Chance
2 Chase
1 Collins mouth closed
1 Criger
4 Corridon
1 Crandall
3 Bergen
1 Bescher
6 Blackburn
1 Dahlen
1 Donohue
1 Delehanty
3 Downey
2 Dygert
3 Elberfield
2 Evans
1 Evers
1 Fletcher
2 Gardner
2 Graham boston
2 Hartzel
1 Herzog
1 Hoblitzell (cin)
2 Huggins
2 T Jones
1 Karger
4 Knight
1 Konetchy
2 Krause
2 Kroh
4 A Latham
2 Leach
2 Lobert
4 Lord
2 Mattern
1 McConnell
2 McIntyre
2 Milan
4 Moran
1 Moran (stray line)
1 Mullin
2 Murphy
1 Needham
4 OLeary
4 Olmstead
4 Parent
1 Paskert
3 Payne
2 Pelty
2 Phelps
1 Phillippe
1 Quinn
3 Reulbach
3 Richie
1 Schaeffer
1 Schlei
2 Schulte
3 Shean (boston)
1 Sheckard
1 Smith
1 Steinfeldt
1 Stone
1 Sweeney
1 Tannehill
1 Titus
5 Wallace
1 Wolter
4 Wheat
1 Wilhelm (missing R)
1 Wiltse
2 White
1 Wilson
1 Speaker

[judsonhamlin]

Ted - I agree that the vast majority of card series/sets can be broken down into multiples of 12. Any thoughts on the 460 only series of 48 being produced on four differernt sheets? Are there any miscuts that might provide some clues as to the sheet(s)?
I might guess that all but three of the Giants came off of the same sheet, btw (3 of Devore, McGraw (Glove), Merkle and Schlei (bat) might likely be out if the printers tried to group background colors to ease the process).

[tedzan]

Actually......6 is the lowest common denominator evident in all the various T206 series. And, 12 cards across the sheet fits in nicely
with the printing machines of that era.

For example, the E91 cards (in 1908) were printed on sheets of 11 cards across x 3 rows down.

In my simulated 460 series sheet, I arranged the cards alphabetically. However, most likely the 48 subjects were organized by teams,
and/or arrangements that facilitated inking.

So, your guesses are good ones.


Regards ole friend,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Regarding your........
" The magic number for the T206 sheets is not 48 but rather 34. The evidence to back that up is strong.

The Southern League group was 48 however only 34 were printed in the initial run of the Brown Hindu set.

The Brown Hindu set has a confirmed number of 102 total. 34 x 3 = 102

The Coupon Type 1 set has a total of 68. 34 x 2 = 68 "


1.....The OLD MILL or PIEDMONT versions of the Southern League (SL) series clearly consist of 48 cards. The initial printing of the SL series coincided
with the initial Brown HINDU press runs and included only 34 SL cards. These SL cards were most likely printed on a 36-card sheet (or 48-card sheet).
In any event, Major Leaguer's cards (or Double-Prints of the some of the SL cards) were included to fill out these sheets.

It is apparent in the design structure of the T206 set, that 6 is the lowest common denominator. You cannot dismiss this fact, as it is evident through-
out the various T206 series. The make-up of each of the 5 series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, Southern League) is divisible by 6. Furthermore, this factor
is evident in the sub-series (150-only, super-prints, horizontal cards, etc.) This is not a mere coincidence, it was by design.
And my friend, 6 does not factor into 34. I don't see "34" as being any kind of a "magic number" in the production of T206's. The number 34 only exists
with the initial Brown HINDU run of the SL cards.

Incidently, regarding Brown HINDU cards, there are 105 confirmed Major Leaguer cards (not 102).


2.....The 1910 Coupon set consists of 48 Major Leaguer (ML) cards and 20 SL cards. As you know, the 48 ML subjects are derived from the 350-only
Series. Now, I think it has been established (and you'll agree) that the FRONTS of the T206 sheets were printed first. Blank-backed cards of T206's
with "wet ink transfers" of fronts have confirmed this.
So, the American Litho. Co. (ALC) stocked these pre-printed sheets of T206's; and, when an order was received from the various Tobacco Factories,
ALC would then print that brand on the backs of these sheets. Then ship the completed T206's to that respective factory.

Circa Spring of 1910, orders arrived from the ATC's newly acquired COUPON Tobacco Company. ALC grabbed some 48-card blank-backed sheets during
the printing of their 350 series ML cards; and, printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Similarly, ALC grabbed some sheets of blank-backed SL cards and
selected 20 - SL subjects, representing the Southern Association, and printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Multiple sets of these 68 cards were then
shipped to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be inserted in the COUPON cigarette packs.


TED Z

[tedzan]

American Lithographic employed various size presses as a function of the size of the job they were printing. The press in your scan was used to print
their large size projects (e.g., advertising signs, show posters, etc.)

For smaller projects such as greeting cards, postcards, tobacco packs & boxes, and tobacco cards....it's my understanding they used a 19-inch press.

There exists an uncut sheet of PIEDMONT packs that is sized 17" x 33". It's the closest item we have that suggests the type of sheet that the T206's
were printed on. It's evident that the width of this sheet was trimmed a couple inches, which would be consistent with the 19" track that I've noted.


Lastly, if you don't mind....I will cite what you previously posted in another thread......

" 2. I think comments have been made on the vivid colors which is indicitive of an image that has not "suffered" through the transfer process and the
wear associated with a large press run. It looks like something run from the original art stone or plate.

3. Another aspect is the dead on register. This was likely run by one person on a small press, one small sheet at a time. "


AND, I AM IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH THESE STATEMENTS OF YOURS.


TED Z

[Matt]

Tim & mkdltn - fantastic, well thought out, posts. Ted - great discussion you've started.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by canjond

Maybe it was the Collins batting?

Jon, why do you say it was COllins batting in particular?

Zach Wheat

[tedzan]

The Collins (batting) proof card was printed in the 1st series. It was withdrawn (for whatever reasons); therefore, never issued.







TED Z

[Jantz]

Here is another one Tom.

Willis(with bat) - Wilhelm(with bat)

I've seen one other, but its on a website and I can't pull the scan.


Jantz

[cfc1909]

34

[E93]

The green Cobb was printed on top of another green Cobb. I believe Jeff L. has one.
JimB

[tedzan]

Nice offset card of Willis/Wilhelm. Thanks for posting this card.


I've seen a similar offset card of Chance (yellow portrait) with a hint of Cobb (red portrait) to the right of it.
This card is partially suggestive of the 6 super-prints having been printed together.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Four years ago I started this adventure of completing an All-SOVEREIGN set. I completed this set of 402 different cards in just 11 months.
It was a great feeling....but, it wasn't enough. I continued to build a "master set" of SOVEREIGN cards. This included the Six "super-prints"
with the rare SOVEREIGN 460 backs. And, searching for the SOVEREIGN 350 counterparts of the cards in the 150 Series. Not any easy task,
by any means, as I knew there would be those tricky SOVEREIGN No-Prints to deal with.
In my quest to achieve a master set (it is almost accomplished), besides the "elusive nine" **, I have identified the following 48 subjects in
the 150/350 series that are SOVEREIGN 350 No-Prints.

Ball (New York)
Beaumont
Bowerman
Bransfield
Chase (portrait-pink)
Chesbro
F. Clarke (bat)
JJ Clarke (Cleveland)
Cobb (portrait-green)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
H. Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Gibson
Gilbert
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jordan (portrait)
Keeler (portrait)
Killian (pitching)
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Lobert
Marquard (hands down)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Pastorius
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Shaw (St Louis)
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
L. Tannehill
Tinker (portrait)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams

Once again the number "48" has popped up. It's become a repetitive factor in the make-up of the T206 series. In this case....a sheet of T206's
that were never printed with the SOVEREIGN 350 backs.


** Note....The "elusive nine" are 150/350 subjects that were printed with the normal 5 (or 6) brands as 150 series cards. They are very rarely
found with a PIEDMONT 350 back, or an EPDG back. Furthermore, these 9 cards do not exist with any other 350 backs. They are:

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
T. Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Lundgren (Cubs)
Mullin (throwing)
Schulte (front view)



TED Z

[jimonym]

Jantz,

I can confirm the backs on the following:

6. Atz - Hoffman - Piedmont 350
7. Hoblitzell - Stephens - Piedmont 350
8. Abbaticchio(Brown) - Cicotte - Piedmont 350
14. McElveen - Dygert - Piedmont 350

And I also own a McGlynn - Jones (Detroit) - Sweet Caporal 350/30


Tom,
I'd love to see a scan of your Engle/Phillippe. The only one I've seen is this one:

[Matt]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In my quest to achieve this master set (it's almost accomplished now), besides the "elusive nine" **, I have identified the following 48 subjects in the 150/350 series that are SOVEREIGN 350 No-Prints
....
Once again the number "48" pops up....it's become a repetitive factor that makes no sense to ignore in the make-up of the T206 series.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting that 48 cards that were NOT printed with a particular back is supporting proof that the press used to print the cards printed them in sheets of 48?