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#1
11-30-2010, 02:25 PM
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How about telling people to wipe their ass with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Does that qualify as crossing the line?
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#2
11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
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yes
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btw, my 14 yr old has heard the word "ass" many times.....it's not in the top 10 of "dirty words" that can't be said on the board....and also, nothing personal here. You are certainly one of my favorite people in the hobby and I consider you beyond a "hobby" friend...
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com Last edited by Leon; 11-30-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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#3
12-01-2010, 12:30 PM
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I don’t think we should help save people from themselves either. Call me cold hearted or whatever, but I think when people get scammed (be it by a “reprint” baseball card, Nigerian lottery or whatever), it’s their own fault for being greedy and falling for something that is too good to be true. I defended the OP in his original thread. After seeing the Wagner card in this thread I have since changed my mind. I think removing the word “reprint” from a card is a pretty crappy thing to do. Regardless of my opinion though, I still think the seller has a right to sell his garbage. However, that is not my decision, obviously that is yours. However, if you are going to let him sell his junk (even though it was listed in the wrong section), doesn’t he have a right to list it without being interfered with? That’s how all this started and I am pretty sure the OP wouldn’t have acted the way he did or said the things he said if other members wouldn’t have interfered in his thread - I just don’t think it would have come to this point. One of the other mods wrote a while back, “In the B/S/T area there should be no interference in the posts by 3rd parties.” Does this not hold true even in this case? I’m not sure why there are such rules if they’re not going to be enforced? Regards, David
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#4
12-01-2010, 01:03 PM
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#5
12-01-2010, 01:34 PM
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Hello! Certainly I wouldn’t ask that such a rule be enforced if a seller was selling a bad card and passing it off as authentic. But that’s not the case here. He’s description clearly tells the buyer what they are getting (even if it is garbage). I certainly understand the point that other posters have made as to how some unsuspecting buyer could get burned by one of these “reprints” somewhere in the future. However, I have always believed (and lived my life) with the “buyer beware” mentality. I have never bought a watch from somebody selling them from their trench coat. I have never bought electronics from the trunk of someone’s car. I have never bought a designer purse for $25 from someone peddling them on a street corner. Etc, etc. etc. I think you get my point. Again, I understand the concerns of others, but it is ultimately the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying. If someone buys one of his ’33 Goudey Ruth’s on eBay for $150 somewhere down the road, what does that tell you about the buyer? It tells me that their own GREED was the motivational factor in their buying decision, thinking they were buying something for a fraction of the normal price. In other words, it if sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Regards, David
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#6
12-01-2010, 02:00 PM
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#7
12-01-2010, 02:23 PM
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#8
12-01-2010, 02:59 PM
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Because figuring that out has become too complex.
Take the Wagner he modified. Being 101 years old a Wagner T206 should be public domain and just fine to reprint along with all the other T206s. And yet....the text removed was a copyright notice and a licensing notice from Wagners estate. Add to that the possibility(99.9% sure) that the original Wagners were unlicensed and that possibly the owner of a particular Wagner would have some legal control over images of the physical item. All of it makes for a mess that only an IP lawyer would like. Anyone consider reporting his "aging" to Wagners estate? I wonder what their take on it would be. Likely at least one letter "educating" him about removing their copyright notice and producing a derivative work. Just like that place in the 90's that made 3d cards from laser cut Topps and Donruss cards. They were gone before I had a chance to buy one once the big companies lawyers got involved. Steve B
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#9
12-02-2010, 07:52 AM
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well said sir
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#10
12-01-2010, 01:19 PM
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Just asking. Rob M.
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#11
12-01-2010, 01:51 PM
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There are 2 issues separate issues in your question. First, if he were to buy it off the B/S/T thread as you suggested, then he would clearly know what he was buying because it says “Reprint” in the title and body of the posting. The $5 cost would be the other dead giveaway. Second, if he were to buy it at an inflated price as you also suggested (be it eBay, Cragislist, etc), then yes, that would be his own ignorance for not doing his homework first. Let’s turn the question around. Let’s say your son collects fine art paintings and has always desired a painting by a particular artist whose normal works sell in the $5K range. Let’s also say that you were financially in the position to buy one for him. Would you honestly spend that kind of money without doing a little homework first and knowing exactly what you were buying and who you were buying it from? The logical answer is of course you would, so I think the question you posed is a fair one, but kind of ridiculous at the same time. Regards, David
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#12
12-02-2010, 12:33 AM
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I'll say it again Rob.
Have you ever bought a car without a test drive or a mechanic checking it out? Or ever bought a home without an appraisal? If you weren't born yesterday then you probably already know that you should check stuff out before you buy it. The house wife's & uneducated hobbyists that you guys talk about getting taken advantage of on a reprint are probably the same people that get ripped off buying homes, cars and just about anything else. If you have then unfortunately you are one of those people who will probably get burned on a baseball card. Will probably get burned on a car purchase and about anything else of perceived value or necessity. I can almost hear you think from where I am sitting. Yes Rob, some people who sell cars, houses and wait should i say it............ Well ok, Baseball cards, yes baseball cards. I know how could you ever think that in the days of "Leave it To Beaver" that J. Edgar Hoover & McCarthy could possibly be on a witch hunt for communists in this country. So brings me back to my point. Yes, if David's dad didn't do his research and didn't exercise common sense then he could be potentially ripped off by someone selling a fraudulent baseball card. I'd hate to already have paid for the care only to find out that there was no engine in it because i trusted the guy and he told me i didnt have to testdrive it. Come on people, stupidity and ignorance is to blame for too many of this country's problems. Some unscrupulous people in this world sell Quote:
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#13
12-02-2010, 12:43 AM
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Please stop trying to flood the hobby with your junk aged reprints. And since you like to ramble, how about explaining why you remove the word "REPRINT" from your "creations"? Is it not to mislead ? This has been brought up a few times, but you seem to dodge the issue.
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#14
12-02-2010, 07:46 AM
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Good question, let me address that statement.
Why reprint is removed guys!!! The other 95% of people including myself likes to sit back and thumb through the aged cards. Make believing that just for one sec that they actually own the real card. It adds to the authenticity of that. Intent to mislead statement bothers me as the first post I stated these were reprints. i have no more authority from some dumba$$ who buys some from me to pass them off as fakes just as gun manufacturers don't have any authority over the person who buys the gun to intentionally kill someone with it. I don't understand, you guys are either really paranoid or there is people out there selling reprints as real. People who i sell them too are like me, enjoy the hobby. not try to steal from people by passing them off as real. That's a crime. But just a few tips for ya if your browsing on ebay. If you see stuff like this i'd stay away. Ungraded babe ruth, must sell fast. Don't have time to grade Not an expert selling as reprint found at grandmas There is no such thing as a good deal anymore. even granny knows what those ty beenies are worth nowadays. Quote:
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#15
12-02-2010, 12:45 AM
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Derek,
I will answer one of your questions...here is the problem with your analogy...most adults are buying cars and houses and have some experience and yet they still make mistakes. Our small claims courts are populated by people who still make mistakes and not doing the research. That is not the problem as I see it. The problem is kids and young adults. Someone buys one of your cards and turns around and sells it on ebay, another forum, craig's list, facebook, etc. where children have access. The kids buy it thinking they found a great deal. Who does this hurt? Children, teens, and anyone else trying to find hidden treasure. I will turn it around. I buy a fake postal money order from someone who says it is fake in the ad. I will gladly give you that counterfeit postal money order for one of your cards. It looks totally real to the untrained person (you). You take it, send me the card and realize that the money order was a fake. Should the blame be on you because you did not do the research? According to your arguments, it is absolutely on you. Joshua
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#17
12-02-2010, 01:07 AM
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Derek,
Stop trying argue your points. You will never convince anyone here that what your doing is ok. If you would have read a few threads before taking a dump on the BST, you would have realized that this board is full of people who are passionate about old cardboard. The people here love to see new collectors get their first cards. No one here will agree that the new collector that got burned by one of you cards is at fault. While we're asking questions, why would you spend three days aging a card for five bucks?
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#18
12-02-2010, 01:20 AM
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Thank you josh for your post. I will try my best to reply.
1. In my opinion, the kids aren't at risk for these cards. Kids: defined as 13 and under. Scammers aren't going to market there cards to them because they aren't stupid enough they are getting a real '48 Ruth card for $20 bucks or whatever they have in there mowing yard accounts. And yes you are right, people make mistakes. That's why they have warranties, appraisers and grading services. So that people have enough resources in front of them to not go into something that could cost them a lot of money ignorant. 2. You can send me a fake money order if you like. And you are correct. I am unfamilier with real vs fakes. But I am familiar with the fact that there are a lot of people in the world that will try to scam you, especially in this day and age. That I will either A. wait til it clears the bank, or B> google counterfeit money orders. And see what to look for. pic for reference  Honestly I don't deal with the kind of people who i would need to question authenticity or not. I think i get the picture now and understand why you guys could be so mad at reprints. I think that many of you while trying to burn someone got burned yourself. Consider this. You see an add on craigslist about a '48 leaf ruth card. You see the scan and you see the price $350 bucks. That's cheap but not too cheap. You meet up with the guy he seems the normal guy. he says he needs the money to pay rent. you offer him $250 bucks for the card thinking your really shoving it in. he reluctantly agrees. you give him the $250 and go on about your way only to find out that you weren't the one lowballing a guy down on his luck he was actually scamming you. So the tough guy who stuck with the $250 price sending the guy back to his family $100 less than what he actually wanted got scammed. you knew that $350 was a fair price for that card but you knew you could take advantage of him because you perceived his ignorance. Everyone gets scammed everyday. People believe that if i take this pill i will lose weight because Kathy Ireland said i would. Or Billy Mayes said this auger would til my entire garden, or at least that's what i saw on tv. Does it ever clean as good as it does on tv. How many people still buy into that crap. Quote:
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#19
12-01-2010, 02:04 PM
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only the part we want to see?
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You must have skipped over this part of that rule, which has been in the rules for years... "Also, if any fraudulent activity is known about it can be posted in the BST threads, pertaining to that item, by 3rd parties. This is for the protection of the board. Caveat Emptor still is in effect." Now, to me, erasing the word reprint from the reprint cards is almost akin to fraud, and certainly lends a hand downstream if someone wants to sell these as "I don't know if they are real or not". I don't care if he is selling them as reprints, when he erased that word he crossed the line, imo. Why on earth, if you were totally legit, would you erase that word?
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com
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#20
12-02-2010, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Leon, Hello! I think erasing the word “Reprint” is a pretty crappy thing to do as I stated in an earlier post, but I don’t think it could be construed as fraud since he is still selling them as reprints. The bold text that you posted above is really irrelevant to the point I was trying to make, and no, I didn’t skip over that part as you suggested. With all due respect, you skipped over the events in the order in which they happened. I will try to explain my point from another angle. You stated above that erasing the word “Reprint” from a card is almost akin to fraud. Well, let’s just assume for a minute that it actually is fraud. By posting the bold text above, you’re trying to make it sound like others had a right to interfere. However, if you look at this thread from the beginning, you can see that he was interfered with 2 days before it was discovered he was erasing the word “reprint” from the card. So, the original intent of the interference was not to point out fraud as you’re trying to suggest in the bold text above, it was to voice the displeasure of some for selling his cards. That just shouldn’t have happened on the B/S/T boards. Whether others like it or not, he has a right to post something for sale without being interfered with. With that said, this is obviously your forum and you have a right to run it as you wish. I think we can all agree that the cards are garbage, but that is not the point here. The point is that he has a right to sell them. Some want to censor what he is selling. You said in another thread that you didn’t want to censor Bruce and I don’t see the difference in censoring words or censoring items for sale. Censorship is censorship. Again, as much as I, you and others think his cards are garbage, he still has a right to sell them – maybe not here, but somewhere else. I don’t agree with it, just like I don’t agree with serial killers selling their “memorabilia” from behind prison walls, but it is what it is. Regards, David
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#21
12-02-2010, 09:25 AM
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__________________
My collection: http://imageevent.com/vanslykefan
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#22
12-02-2010, 09:38 AM
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Derek- I actually have a huge library. I was a graduate student in English Lit, and I collect books. If anything I have too many and need to get rid of some. But my point is it is unlikely you really understand socialism save how the talking heads on the right carelessly throw the term around. I really don't fully understand it either, so I don't drop it casually into conversations. I'd rather learn more about it before I pretend to be an expert.
That was my only point. Carry on.
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#23
12-11-2010, 01:52 PM
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Curtis manages the images of Ruth, Gehrig, Williams and several others. The cards may now be public domain, but several of the images, if reproduced without a license probably have opened up the publisher/creator to some pretty significant legal exposure.
__________________
Get my new book Baseball Cards at the Edge of War, 1941: The Games, The Gum and The Glory
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#24
11-30-2010, 02:31 PM
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Barry
Parchment is not very absorbant from what I hear anyways, but repro Baseball Cards are. Hopefully there is nothing that chaffe's in his "artificially aging" chemicals! Rhys
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#25
11-30-2010, 02:47 PM
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Can't believe i missed all this fun. The topic threw me off and i didn't click... but i noticed it was over 100 so i thought something must be going on.
Derek, you made a statement in one of your posts i think sums it all up. "I was an uneducated buyer and got took for $400 bucks" I am amazed the grammar police here didn't arrest you! As for wiping my ass with the constitution, id rather use your cards!
__________________
"There is no such thing as over educated! It is better to be quiet and thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt!!
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#26
11-30-2010, 02:58 PM
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Hey Leon- nothing personal taken. I was just stirring the pot a little. I don't like this guy.
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#27
11-30-2010, 03:07 PM
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btw, my 14 yr old has heard the word "ass" many times.....it's not in the top 10 of "dirty words" that can't be said on the board....
It didn't make George Carlin's list so no foul. I was having an Abbie Hoffman flashback when he started talking about cleaning with the Constitution.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
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#28
11-30-2010, 03:13 PM
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Jeff- I once drove Abbie Hoffman from Long Island to Manhattan...now he was an ass. Didn't even say thank you for the ride. True story.
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#29
11-30-2010, 03:18 PM
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#30
11-30-2010, 03:24 PM
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Now that is a "Brush With Greatness." Never met him but I can see it. That must have been some car ride!
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
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