Soaking E Series

Ohio_Collectibles · #1 12-04-2010, 11:30 AM

OK, forgive my ignorance here but isn't soaking a bad thing? I assume that soaking is to removed dirt & stains, but by doing that, isn't it altering the card. How is it any different than say, using a power eraser to clean white bordered cards. After soaking, wouldn't you have to Iron or Press them to get the water out? That would possibly remove any creases and also press the card outward and make it slightly oversized. What's to stop you from trimming it at that point.

Ed, I understand that these are cards for your personal collection most likely, But what happens when you pass away and someone else gets the cards. How will they know the cards have been soaked?

Just curious, I've seen many people get jumped here when discussing "altering" cards. So what's the difference in this case?\

~OC

marcdelpercio · #2 12-04-2010, 11:48 AM

Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. Only superficial dirt and stains are lifted away from the card and there are no chemical or physical alterations to the card stock. "Power erasing" may be slightly different as this may remove a light layer of the card fibers along with the pencil/ink mark so, in a sense, this does alter the original composition of the card. I think everybody would agree that the other things you mentioned (pressing to widen borders, trimming, etc) are alterations for that exact reason.

There will probably never be universal acceptance of soaking as there are some who feel that absolutely anything that changes any aspect of a card as it is originally found is an alteration. In my opinion, if one subscribes to that viewpoint, they must view the card as already having been altered when the dirt/pencil/whatever was added and, in fact, any card that is not gem mint directly off the press would in some way be altered.

To answer the original question, by the way, E93s and E95s both soak very nicely

thekingofclout · #3 12-04-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. Only superficial dirt and stains are lifted away from the card and there are no chemical or physical alterations to the card stock. "Power erasing" may be slightly different as this may remove a light layer of the card fibers along with the pencil/ink mark so, in a sense, this does alter the original composition of the card. I think everybody would agree that the other things you mentioned (pressing to widen borders, trimming, etc) are alterations for that exact reason.

There will probably never be universal acceptance of soaking as there are some who feel that absolutely anything that changes any aspect of a card as it is originally found is an alteration. In my opinion, if one subscribes to that viewpoint, they must view the card as already having been altered when the dirt/pencil/whatever was added and, in fact, any card that is not gem mint directly off the press would in some way be altered.

To answer the original question, by the way, E93s and E95s both soak very nicely

I'm a photo collector and don't profess to have any knowledge regarding to cards, but... according to Marc's belief, wouldn't taking a spoon to a card's corners be perfectly fine?

Quoting Marc's POV regarding soaking...

"Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. "

marcdelpercio · #4 12-04-2010, 12:48 PM

Jimmy,
I would consider spooning out a crease to be physically altering the card itself, though I wouldn't put it on the same level as trimming, rebuilding or recoloring where something is actually added to or removed from the card. In other words, I'd say it is a "minor" alteration.

Soaking in water does not physically change or manipulate the card but instead only removes foreign substances that were never a part of the card so I don't see this as an alteration to the card at all. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

chaddurbin · #5 12-04-2010, 12:56 PM

if you soak then press it, card will be thinner but longer...that's changing the appearance of the card.

it's a slippery road. many people are for soaking, but getting distilled water, the unnatural act of soaking paper into water, then carefully putting card onto wax paper wedged between 18 war and peaces waiting for card to dry out...doesn't sound like a fun or relaxing saturday afternoon for me (when it was a hobby).

but to answer OP, e93/e95 soak well...moreso than e94/e98.

thekingofclout · #6 12-04-2010, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

Jimmy,
I would consider spooning out a crease to be physically altering the card itself, though I wouldn't put it on the same level as trimming, rebuilding or recoloring where something is actually added to or removed from the card. In other words, I'd say it is a "minor" alteration.

Soaking in water does not physically change or manipulate the card but instead only removes foreign substances that were never a part of the card so I don't see this as an alteration to the card at all. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

Let me ask you this Marc; What happens to the card once you soak it, if you let it dry without pressing it? Just straight out of the water and lay it on a paper towel. How does the card look after that?

It seems to me that the book pressing is absolutely the same thing as using a spoon to press the card.

Best, Jimmy

marcdelpercio · #7 12-04-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

Let me ask you this Marc; What happens to the card once you soak it, if you let it dry without pressing it? Just straight out of the water and lay it on a paper towel. How does the card look after that?

It seems to me that the book pressing is absolutely the same thing as using a spoon to press the card.

Best, Jimmy

Jimmy,
I understand what you are saying but I think there is a big difference between pressing a card to the extent that it is widened and/or creases are removed and simply placing it between two books so it dries flat. I have soaked hundreds of cards and dried them between two books. I can honestly say that this has never removed even the lightest wrinkles or creases. If anything, it can sometimes reveal even more surface flaws that may have been somewhat hidden by the other substances on the card. In my experience, all soaking has accomplished was to remove dirt, glue or paste residue, and other foreign debris from the card...which was exactly my goal.

I'm sure there are ways to remove creases from cards. I do not know how to do this, nor would I attempt to if I did. To me, this crosses the line into physically altering the card.

FrankWakefield · #8 12-04-2010, 02:45 PM

Seems to me that many of the really nice T206s that folks collect, the really good ones that are slabbed, those cards survived as they did because they went straight into a scrapbook 100 years ago. The cards that the kids played with, that were carried in pockets and grimy hands, those cards are the ones we see today that are well worn. Those really nice slabbed cards were most likely soaked off of a scrapbook page 20 to 30 years ago. That's the reality of it. Even for the sacrosanct who abhor soaking... those guys most likely have soaked cards in those high number slabs.

Wonderfully well, Ed. That's how they'll soak.

Edwolf1963 · #9 12-04-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio_Collectibles

OK, forgive my ignorance here but isn't soaking a bad thing? I assume that soaking is to removed dirt & stains, but by doing that, isn't it altering the card. How is it any different than say, using a power eraser to clean white bordered cards. After soaking, wouldn't you have to Iron or Press them to get the water out? That would possibly remove any creases and also press the card outward and make it slightly oversized. What's to stop you from trimming it at that point.

Ed, I understand that these are cards for your personal collection most likely, But what happens when you pass away and someone else gets the cards. How will they know the cards have been soaked?

Just curious, I've seen many people get jumped here when discussing "altering" cards. So what's the difference in this case?\

~OC

OC, I understand your point, but I personally disagree in that a card stained, written upon, handled by greasy fingers, gets dirty over time, etc can also be construed in one form or another as altering (negatively), so isn't the idea of soaking more to clean/correct/reverse this? You might otherwise clean other collectibles in order to maintain and improve their quality and appearance, I don't see much difference here.

I don't know about ironing and other avenues to remove wrinkles, I don't think to or take it to that level. Soaking to clean - you don't have to do any of that to get the water out other than press between a couple hard cover books in a clean dry cloth and let dry. And trimming (in my book) is something altogether different. I know that many collectors/sellers soak their cards and I'm totally fine buying or trading for them.

I just don't see it as altering in a deceptive/artificial way.

I know this galvanizes strong opinion on both sides and I respect differing view points. Thank you (and Frank) for your feedback, I truly appreciate the thoughts and opinions from the Board.

Ed

Ohio_Collectibles · #10 12-04-2010, 12:00 PM

Honestly, I have no opinion one way or the other. I was just curious on the subject. If a card has been soaked is it detectible to grading companies? I've heard of a guy in New York I think that can "clean" cards. He can remove paint, ink, tape residue, and other stains from a card and it is supposedly undetectible to graders. Yet he was practically crucified on several sports card message boards when he offered his services.

I am wondering how that would be any different than soaking.

~OC

Edwolf1963 · #11 12-04-2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio_Collectibles

Honestly, I have no opinion one way or the other. I was just curious on the subject. If a card has been soaked is it detectible to grading companies? I've heard of a guy in New York I think that can "clean" cards. He can remove paint, ink, tape residue, and other stains from a card and it is supposedly undetectible to graders. Yet he was practically crucified on several sports card message boards when he offered his services.

I am wondering how that would be any different than soaking.

~OC

Nothing I've soaked has ever come back "altered". I would suspect bcse there's nothing artificial as far as chemicals left behind or layers stripped? I've never taken it past this to other avenues/levels though .. or on other cards besides T206.

Marco (and Frank again) - thank you for your feedback on the E93/E95 - good to know! Much appreciate!

Ed

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