Shoeless Joe Jackson

[fkw]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

Haha

Pitchers throwing to Bonds, Sosa etc. were jacked on 'roids too..... even field IMO

Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Didnt want to get into this but Lajoie, Wagner and that crew did Coke to "get up" for games daily too.
Every Era had its performance enhancers, and restricters

The All Time HR Single Season and Career Leader, Mr. Bonds still had to hit that ball.... and he did it Very Well !

[Bridwell]

Shoeless Joe's cards are vastly overpriced, in my opinion. I don't own any, and don't plan to.

Shoeless Joe has the perfect combination of hype: He's been immortalized in movies, had a great nickname, had some awesome talent and had a train wreck of a career. He was famous and infamous.

He was also left out of a lot of major card sets. So he's high demand in the sets he is in.

[rhettyeakley]

Pat, all of the "Black Sox" have one thing going for them, notoriety. For better or for worse we all know their names and they are a known entity. Compare that with your average "common" and it is no surprise that one would rather have a card of Swede Risberg or Hap Felsh than Chick Fewster or George Dauss. That novelty factor over the years has turned a lot of people to collecting them specifically. Now, collecting Black Sox cards has become one of the most popular niche collection out there.

When I first becan collecting pre-war there was only a slight premium for the Eddie Cicotte & Chick Gandil's versus a common in the T206 set--today that gap has widened significantly.

-Rhett

[mintacular]

For better or for worse we all know their names and they are a known entity. --So theoretically in future years Bonds and Arod would garner more attention/value due to their substance abuse? And wouldn't by this same logic Wagner be more desired if he was involved with a scandal? I guess waht I'm saying is that if Joe's accomplishments were good enough to stand on their own than this scandal should have hurt his collectability yet for some reason it has only helped him...I guess time heals some of these wounds and perhaps Bonds Rose and the like will be forgiven at some point

[rhettyeakley]

Pat, I'm not sure why it is hard to believe that notoriety or infamy of those breaking rules causes there to be much more interest than there otherwise would be. Some of the most valuable signatures belong to some of the lowest forms of life--John Dillinger, Baby Face Nelson, etc., etc.

As human beings we are strangely fascinated by those that break rules. I have one of the first few Beckett/Eckes price guides for baseball cards and in it sets like M101-4 where there are most major HOFers present Jackson is priced at about the same as Walter Johnson, and quite a bit less than Ty Cobb. Obviously, now, Jackson will outsell Cobb all day long. This being said, it is not a hard and fast rule that can be applied to everyone--take Gaylord Perry for example-he admittedly broke rules but isn't very well collected today and doubt he will be garnering any major following in the future--so I don't think Barry Bonds and ARod may be as well collected as you might think--there is nothing romantic about injecting steroids in your a**--however, working for a miserly owner that doesn't pay you very well does provide (to some people out there) a bit of justification for what the Black Sox did.

I agree with the poster above that stated the Black Sox are all vastly overrated BUT I can tell you they are quick sellers when you do have one--so the market (the buyers) have determined thay would rather have a Black Sox player than most HOFers within the same set. There are many that like to romanticize these guys as well, refusing to believe they did what they did. Honestly, barring the scandal a Buck Weaver card would sell for about the same as Jacques Fournier--so in the overall scheme of things Infamy has made some fairly common players into larger than life figures.

On a completely unrelated note...I was thinking about the 1919 White Sox the other day and I gotta admit I feel bad for Nemo Leibold -truly the forgotten 1919 White Sox -he was the only guy in the everyday starting lineup that is neither collected as a Black Sox card nor is in the HOF (Collins, Schalk)--too bad Nemo, you should have taken the money, then we'd all know your name!

[mintacular]

Thanks for you comments. I did not realize that the other "black sox" players were also widely collected...I guess there is no exact formula for how scandal will impact the collector demand for any given player as there are many other factors that are also in play...As someone else mentioned "Field of Dreams" definately seemed to launch these players into the stratsphere in regards to name recogntion.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

Haha
Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Greenies do not make you hit the ball 100 ft. further, grow your body to the size of a professional wrestler or throw a ball 10-15 mph faster. The sad thing about Bonds and the others is that they were very talented before the drugs. Bonds may very well have broken the record clean, but we'll never know because he chose his path to artificially enhanced fame. Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe he was innocent too.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

We do??

[mybuddyinc]

As pretty much stated already, people love infamy.

I don't know much about non-sports cards, but I do know the Hitler cards in the Horrors of War set have a heck of a higher demand and price.
Also the good old 1956 Adventure set. Any non-boxing card hardly has any value, the boxers go for $10-20, but throw out a Schmelling (Swastika) and you in the $500 range.


The worst thing that could happen to the value of Jackson cards, would be IF he was inducted in the HOF.


A lot of no-goodness is now baseball legend: From the 1876 Louisville Four to the 1890's Baltimore Orioles (they not only worked the Balt. chop, and the hit and run, but were also famous for cutting across the infield when going from 1st to 3rd), to the Phillies in early 1900's using electric buzzers and Morse code at 3rd base coaching box, Etc. Etc.


A very notable amount of games were fixed, the Black Sox was just an ultimate zenith. Not saying it's right, just that it was (or is).


My favorite answer to cheating allegations was when early 1900 middleweight Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was accused of throwing fights. His response was something like: "Yes, I have thrown many fights in my career. I have fought Bob Fitzsimmon, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Stanley Ketchel, and Jack Johnson. Who do you want to talk about first ??" All charges were dropped !!

[mighty bombjack]

I can't find them right now, but I have seen the splits for Jackson on the games that the Sox won and lost in that series. I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

Can anyone find those splits for us?

Also, I'd like to add that not every collector is a moralist. Talent often comes with great personality flaws, and humanity can be very collectible.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

Well, here are the splits:

Game 1, Reds win 9-1, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 2, Reds win 4-2, Jackson goes 3-4
Game 3, White Sox win 9-1, Jackson goes 2-3
Game 4, Reds win 2-0, Jackson goes 1-4
Game 5, Reds win 5-0, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 6, White Sox win 5-4, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 7, White Sox win 4-1, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 8, Reds win 10-5, Jackson goes 2-5

In White Sox wins, Jackson goes 6-11 for .545 avg
In Reds wins, Jackson goes 6-21 for .285 avg

From Baseball Almanac: "Joe Jackson had batted a Series-leading .375 but acknowledged that he had let up in key situations."

From wikipedia: "Some believed that most of his offensive potency came in games that were not fixed and/or when the game appeared out of reach." (The World Series by Cohen, Neft, Johnson and Deutsch cited)

So many point to that .375 and say he couldn't have been involved. I say differently.