1960 Pirates v. Yanks Game 7 MLB Network 8pm

[Cy2009]

Originally Posted by tedzan

towards Yankee pitcher Jim Coates.

Coates replaced Shantz in the bottom of the 8th inning and was one out away from ending the inning. Then, a lapse by Coates allowed
the Pirates to keep their inning alive. After stopping Roberto Clemente's ground ball, 1st baseman Skowron turned and prepared to throw
to Coates covering 1st base, but Coates, wasn't there since he stopped midway to 1st base. Skowron was forced to hold onto the ball,
and Virdon scored to cut the Yankee lead to 7–6. Hal Smith followed with a 3-run home run to give the Pirates a 9–7 lead. Ralph Terry
relieved Coates and got the last out.

I read that Berra has never forgiven Coates for not being at 1st base for that crucial play. Yogi blames Coates for the 1960 W.S. loss. Not
Mazeroski....who Berra (in Left Field) in the 9th inning watched Maz's HR sail over him into the stands.

Check it out when you watch this 7th game.


TED Z

Ted,

I don't think Coates beats Clemente to the bag even if he did go straight to it. Clemente was there before Skowron could even toss it.

Cy

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Cy2009

Ted,

I don't think Coates beats Clemente to the bag even if he did go straight to it. Clemente was there before Skowron could even toss it.

Cy

Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him (I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology.

[GoldenAge50s]

Coates was going for the ball & veered off to 1st base--no way was he going to get there in time even if he takes a straight line--Clemente beats the play!

Blame the terrible Forbes infield for the loss, not Coates.

Bobby Schantz was great in relief, but why did he bat in the 8th w/ runners on 2nd & 3rd? A pinch hit there breaks the game wide open & Smith's homer means little---the comeback most likely never happens ! He had already gone 5 plus innings of 1 or 2 hit shutout ball!

[Kawika]

I was able to catch the last three innings this afternoon. What a pleasure it was to watch a ballgame just like I used to a half-century ago, glorious black-and-white, Mel Allen at the mike, Moose Skowron and Harvey Haddix in the glory of their times, no thundersticks or exploding scoreboards just the murmur of the crowd, no Tim McCarver. (I have a feeling that your average sportsfan of today without the old time connection would be bored silly by this broadcast). Only thing missing was the Ballantine Beer ads. Boy, how did we ever live without instant replay in those prehistoric times! What was particularly delightful was Bob Costas' panel of old players and their comments. I know that the game is available on DVD but do any of you out in Net54 Land know if the show as broadcasted today with the between-the-innings conversations with Dick Groat, Bobby Richardson etc plus the great locker room interviews (gotta love Gino Cimoli) would be included on the DVD? A heavenward tip of the cap to Bing Crosby for making it all possible.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him
(I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will
make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology. "

I first heard this story from Clete Boyer, who was there on the field playing 3rd base (and in the 8th inning SS) in that 7th game.

Clete was at my table at the Ft. Washington show back in the late 1990's sorting thru my Bowman BB cards. I first didn't realize who he was,
but he was very friendly and we were talking Baseball for about 40 minutes. The subject of Yankees World Series games came up and that is
when he told me this (and I'm paraphrasing it)...."at Yankees gatherings, as friendly as Yogi is, he will not speak with Jim Coates. Yogi holds a
grudge towards Coates, since he blames Coates for the loss of that 7th game by not covering 1st base to get the throw from Bill Skowron. "

During our conversation, Clete gave me his address in order to send him more Bowman cards, and that is when I first realized who he was. Clete
was an autograph guest at the Philly show that day.

Furthermore, when I recently visited Yogi Berra's Museum (in Montclair, NJ), I repeated this story to the two gentlemen working at the museum
and they confirmed Yogi's feelings toward Coates.


Look, Yogi was in Left Field that day....did he get a good view of Coates' lapse in getting to 1st base ?
I certainly don't know. However, Boyer was close by in the infield at SS when this occurred. He, too, faults Coates for hesitating to get to 1st
base in time.

Hey guys, I trust Clete's take on this scenario.....he had a bird's-eye view of this event.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I also feel it was an absolute joy to watch that game last night. It is amazing that a game of such magnitude, with 19 runs scoring and all manner of turning points, was played in 2 hours and 36 minutes. A game like that today would be passing the four hour mark and no matter how exciting would feel interminable. Everything about that broadcast was good, from the crisp play, the spare broadcasting, the absence of endless messages across the screen, even the lack of instant replay. Today a guy hits a grounder to shortstop and we have to watch it again from six different angles.

When I was a kid growing up all the other kids always talked about the ground ball that hit Tony Kubek in the throat, and I had never seen it. Last night was the first time, and it was a really wicked hop. And I always wondered about Mantle's dive back to first, and it sure was a split second play. It was just a game for the ages.

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times.

And I too noticed around the sixth inning or so that nobody seemed to have struck out. Sure enough, the game went nine innings without even one strikeout. Simply an mazing game of baseball.

[mr2686]

Regarding Coates, after seeing the game last night I'd have to agree that he's getting a raw deal. He had to veer off to get to 1st after it was obvious he couldn't get to the ball and Moose could. I think this is one of those things where the players remember it one way, and since the film was lost for 50 years, they haven't seen any replays and it's just become a fact now.
Even Bobby Richardson seemed to soften after seeing the film.
Yogi still swears that Jackie Robinson was out when stealing home in the WS, but new replays from different angles support the safe call, so I doubt anyone can convince him otherwise about Coates.
Both Coates and Yogi will be at the 61 reunion in January....wonder if they'll talk to each other?
Anyway, I thought the whole presentation of the Game last night and the discussions between innings was really good, and I really enjoyed it.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times. .

Of course, I don't know exactly what went into the selection process for tv interviews in the clubhouse that afternoon. But I'd like to say that it's not clear to me that Bob Prince was guilty of any racism or bias in his role as an interviewer that day. I was an infant in 1960 and can't speak to how Prince related to Clemente that year. But I listened to Prince broadcast just about every game from the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies, and he was a very great admirer of Clemente, and I know for a fact that Clemente felt very warmly toward Prince. Maybe the people at NBC who produced the post-game interviews decided who got to jump up on the table with Prince to talk "coast to coast." Maybe they didn't want to hear Roberto speak with his accent. But except for the one time that Prince reached down and pulled Hal Smith up to the table to talk with him, Bob Prince just stood there and spoke with whomever happened to hop up and say hi. Besides, I think there were a few other principals who didn't get an interview: Stuart, maybe Friend and Nelson and surely Mizell. And what about Murtaugh?

[barrysloate]

Fair point Mark, and it's possible that Clemente never got close enough to Prince in the clubhouse to be called up. He was private and maybe didn't feel comfortable stepping up to the microphone. Whatever the reason, he was unquestionably one of the team's true stars, and it seemed like a glaring omission.

[slidekellyslide]

Ted, I hope you get a chance to see the play for yourself...Yogi and Boyer are just plain wrong. Coates broke to first base almost instantaneously...he veers only slightly to avoid colliding with Skowron who was directly in his path...either way there is no way they were going to get Clemente anyway..Clemente was almost to the bag by the time Skowron picked up the ball.

I did a little research on this this morning and I can see in Yogi's latest book "You can learn a lot by observing.." he just flat out states that Coates didn't cover first...then inexplicably he goes on to say that he never blamed any single person for a loss. Yogi owes Coates an apology and I would hope that at least the NY Press would examine this issue. You reading this O'Keeffe?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your......
" Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him
(I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will
make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology. "

I first heard this story from Clete Boyer, who was there on the field playing 3rd base (and in the 8th inning SS) in that 7th game.

Clete was at my table at the Ft. Washington show back in the late 1990's sorting thru my Bowman BB cards. I first didn't realize who he was,
but he was very friendly and we were talking Baseball for about 40 minutes. The subject of Yankees World Series games came up and that is
when he told me this (and I'm paraphrasing it)...."at Yankees gatherings, as friendly as Yogi is, he will not speak with Jim Coates. Yogi holds a
grudge towards Coates, since he blames Coates for the loss of that 7th game by not covering 1st base to get the throw from Bill Skowron. "

During our conversation, Clete gave me his address in order to send him more Bowman cards, and that is when I first realized who he was. Clete
was an autograph guest at the Philly show that day.

Furthermore, when I recently visited Yogi Berra's Museum (in Montclair, NJ), I repeated this story to the two gentlemen working at the museum
and they confirmed Yogi's feelings toward Coates.


Look, Yogi was in Left Field that day....did he get a good view of Coates' lapse in getting to 1st base ?
I certainly don't know. However, Boyer was close by in the infield at SS when this occurred. He, too, faults Coates for hesitating to get to 1st
base in time.

Hey guys, I trust Clete's take on this scenario.....he had a bird's-eye view of this event.


TED Z

Yogi usually agreed with Casey Stengel, but this was one of the times when Yogi was critical of Casey. First, he thought Casey should have started Whitey
Ford in game 7.
Secondly, given the situation in the 8th inning, Yogi questioned Casey's decision to replace Bobby Shantz with Jim Coates. Yogi thought a better choice of
relievers would have been Louis Arroyo, or even Ryan Duren.

Many years later at an Old Timer's event (1972), Casey admitted to Ryan Duren...."You know the biggest mistake I made in the 1960 World Series ?
I should have brought you in, in the 8th inning"......instead of Jim Coates.


Mike (mr2686)

I think, given some of the above posted feelings, Yogi was just upset with Casey's decision in that situation, and found blame with Coates. My understanding
is that Yogi took this loss very hard.

Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Yogi and Coates will talk to each other at the 1961 reunion in January ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Bob Costas asked Bobby Richardson why Casey didn't start Ford three times, or why he didn't bring Ford into the 7th game in relief, and you could see that it rankles Richardson to this day. It sounds like the players lost faith in the 70 year old Stengel's ability to manage the team smartly.

And Richardson also mentioned that Coates first went after the ball, then when he saw he couldn't reach it, sprinted to first. It certainly looked like he was hustling, but Clemente simply beat him to the bag.

[nolemmings]

Coates did get a raw deal. He comes in with two on and no out, retires the first two without incident, then gives up what was not much more than a swinging bunt to one of the NL's best hitters. And yes, he was hustling all the way on that play but just couldn't get to the bag in time, assuming Skowron would have fed him perfectly anyway. Then it looks like he had Smith struck out, but the ump ruled that he checked his swing. That would have been worth a replay and discussion with Costas, and I wonder how that would have been called these days. Smith, by the way, seemed to just luck into one--he looked awful that whole at bat until that pitch.

A few observations.

It was a mistake to not start Whitey in the opener, no doubt. I wonder how much he would have left in game 7 though, having just twirled 9 innings the day before. Again, one lucky swing by Smith was the difference--could have come off of anybody, IMO. Putting in the wild Ryne Duren there and face a potential wild pitch would not have been wise, even though he threw hard the bats were finding the ball that day--no Ks.

As mentioned, Shantz had no business batting with two in scoring position in the top of the eighth. A pinch hit from Elston Howard or Long there could (maybe would) have broken the Bucs.

I really wonder why Casey came out to talk to Coates after the first pitch foul to Clemente. He was very animated, but what was his point? BTW, in today's game don't you think they would walk Clemente to set up a force at any base and pitch to the back-up catcher?

On Mantle's single in the 9th, Clemente booted the ball. Dale Long reached third and of course his pinch runner then scored the tying run on that infield smash to Nelson. He doesn't score if he was not on third. No error for Clemente, and Mel's play by play seems to suggest that Long was rounding second on his way to third, but a) I'm not sure he tries it if the ball is not booted--we can't see Long running and the situation didn't necessarily call for him trying to take that base; and b) a clean fielding play and throw by one of the stronger arms in the NL would have nailed the slow-footed Long, IMO. I guess all's well that end's well if you're a Pirates fan, but I wonder if that play would have been more widely discussed had the Bombers gone on to win.

[barrysloate]

Todd- I agree with you that Hal Smith looked awful on that at bat, and I remember wondering after he took a wild swing how he could have possibly homered. It was ironic of course that he hit what was assumed would be one of the most famous home runs of all time, yet it was nearly forgotten some fifteen minutes or so later.

[tedzan]

Berra said as much, regarding Stengel......that he must be losing that brilliant managing touch that got the Yankees 9
A.L. Championships (including 7 World Championships) prior to 1960.

Perhaps, Yogi wished he was behind the plate for that 7th game (he caught 3 of the games, while Ellie Howard caught
4 of them), for he would persuaded Casey to bring in Arroyo, or Duren, or even Ford.

In two prior 7-game World Series, Stengel had Allie Reynolds (1952) and Bob Turley (1958) pitch in 3 games.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- Stengel was considered old at 70, and that partly or mostly explains why he was fired.

One of my favorite Stengel stories, relating to his dotage, was that during his tenure as Mets manager he was known to call on Blanchard to pinch hit. He then had to be reminded by one of his coaches that Blanchard didn't play for the Mets.

[Robextend]

It seems that Blanchard caught Game 7 because Howard was hurt.

[GoldenAge50s]

I tried to watch for all the little things:

3 times on balls hit to right field Roberto fumbled it!

Foul balls were rolled back to the dugout, not tossed into the stands.

Batters stayed in or just stepped slightly out of the batters box once they came to the plate.

Managers went to the mound, not pitching coaches.

Hal Smith struck out!---He went MORE than half way around on that checked swing on the high pitch, and looked completely fooled at the plate on every pitch.

Mickey Mantle made the hairs on my neck stand up every time they even showed him--on deck, in center, or at the plate! He even looked fairly healthy as the limping was minimal---and---The guy could HIT!