1960 Pirates v. Yanks Game 7 MLB Network 8pm

[slidekellyslide]

Ted, I hope you get a chance to see the play for yourself...Yogi and Boyer are just plain wrong. Coates broke to first base almost instantaneously...he veers only slightly to avoid colliding with Skowron who was directly in his path...either way there is no way they were going to get Clemente anyway..Clemente was almost to the bag by the time Skowron picked up the ball.

I did a little research on this this morning and I can see in Yogi's latest book "You can learn a lot by observing.." he just flat out states that Coates didn't cover first...then inexplicably he goes on to say that he never blamed any single person for a loss. Yogi owes Coates an apology and I would hope that at least the NY Press would examine this issue. You reading this O'Keeffe?

[Cy2009]

The game is on again today (Thursday) at 3:00 PM eastern time.

Cy

[tedzan]

Not only have I seen this game (via an old VHS tape), but in the Fall of 1960, I heard the entire game in real-time on my radio.

Please do not misunderstand me, I'm not blaming Jim Coates. I simply have relayed to all of you a first hand opinion told to me
from a ballplayer, Clete Boyer, who witnessed this event from a very close vantage point. Clete's story tells of Yogi's continuing
grudge towards Coates. Apparently, Yogi harbored this grudge for at least 18 years (I had a 40 minute conversation with Clete
at the Ft. Washington show..circa 1999). If I recall correctly, Clete faulted Coates action (or lack of it) just the same as Yogi.

As, I have already stated, these guys also questioned Stengel's choice of Coates in relief of Shantz. Furthermore, they faulted
Casey Stengel for not starting Ford....or, not bringing in Ryan Duren, etc., etc.. The blame game goes on and on. All of these
Yankees were devasted; and, it's human nature to play the blame game.

Clete, however, did not hold a grudge. He was a very friendly and talkative guy. After his signing session was over, he returned
to my table and we continued Talkin' Baseball for another 1/2 an hour while he sorted thru more of my Bowman cards.


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

I didn't realize that any film of this game (other than Maz's homer) was out there before it was found in Bing's house. I still think Clete and Yogi are wrong...even Costas mentioned it.

All that aside it really was interesting to watch the game...clearly one of the best WS games ever played...and it was a thrill to see Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris, and Roberto Clemente play...and for me to see Bobby Shantz pitch was special....he's been a favorite player of mine for a very long time, but I had never even seen film of him pitching.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

...and for me to see Bobby Shantz pitch was special....he's been a favorite player of mine for a very long time, but I had never even seen film of him pitching.

Musings (or ranting-and-ravings, if you prefer) of an old fan:
Because I was a clueless kid back in those long-ago days who didn't know you could find out who was going to be pitching simply by reading the newspaper on gameday I wouldn't know who'd be taking the mound until I got to Yankee Stadium. Always hoped it would be Whitey Ford. Saw all the Yankee pitchers at one time or another but it still seems like Schantz or Bob Turley pitched most every game I went to. It cracked me up to hear Mel Allen refer to him a couple of times as Little Bobby Schantz. Hadn't thought about that in 50 years but that's what he was known by, never just Bobby Schantz, always Little Bobby Schantz. The wife and I started goofing with it while we were watching the game, intoning in our best Mel Allen twang Little Bobby Turley (who was as big as a truck), Little Bobby Richardson, Little Bobby Clemente, Little Bobby Skinner. And after that annoying color crawling scroll at the bottom of the b&w screen "updated" us for the hundredth time, Little Bobby Feller. Might have had to be there, I guess.

[mr2686]

I just think there were so many little things that could have happened to change the outcome of the game....If the bad hop doesn't hit Kubek in the throat, If Mantle get's tagged going back to first, if Long get's thrown out going to 3rd and Clemente doesn't bobble the ball (and what the heck was Long doing out on the bases anyway? He was a pinch hitter that wasn't going in for defense. Why wait till he gets to 3rd to pinch run McDougald), if Smith is called out on strikes, if Stengel starts Ford or brings him in for relief...it goes on and on. But I guess that's what makes baseball so much fun and why we are debating a game that took place 50 years ago...and why I collect the 1960 Pirates autographs.

[insidethewrapper]

I thought DeMaestri replaced Kubek at SS. Did Boyer go to SS ?

[insidethewrapper]

I just checked Boyer was at 3b in the 8th inning and SS in the 9th. So he wasn't playing SS when Coates was on the mound.

[uffda51]

I had forgotten that Elston Howard was injured and out of the lineup. I also hadn't remembered that Clemente batted fifth, behind Skinner and Rocky Nelson. Nelson hit .300 that year but had only 200 AB, with 7 HR. Skinner batted .273 w/ 15 HR. Dick Stuart hit .260 with 23 HR. Clemente batted .314 w/ 16 HR. I would have batted Clemente third - but I was only nine years old then, so what did I know?

It was great to watch this game, which made baseball feel more like a pastime and less like a video game than today's broadcasts.

[tedzan]

Mike (mr2686) mentioned...." Both Coates and Yogi will be at the 61 reunion in January....wonder if they'll talk to each other? "
It will be interesting to find out if Yogi and Coates are talking to each again. Where is this 1962 Reunion occurring ?

Dan B.

I saw Bobby Shantz pitch for the A's and the Yankees. He was a spunky sidearming southpaw who gave the Yankees a tough
time back in the early 1950's. Also, he was one of the best fielding pitchers in his era. And, a great guy at BB cards shows.

One smart thing Stengel did early in that 7th game was bring in Shantz. Shantz gave the Yankees 5 good innings of relief.


TED Z

[mr2686]

DeMaestri came in for Kubek and was then pinch hit for by Long. Long was pinch run for by McDougald who then went to 3B as Boyer moved to SS.

As for the 61 reunion, MAB-Celebrity is having a multi yankee reunion show in Jan in NJ...61, 81 and 86 teams. Looks like 11 from 61 have confirmed...including Coates.
I mentioned before that Richardson (no relation) seemed to soften a bit on Coates when he saw the film. I recorded the show and FF to that part and before he watched it he was clinching his fists and saying Coates didn't cover first and you'd think that was practiced enough in spring training...afterwards he almost looked shocked when he saw the tape. Kinda like "you mean the world isn't flat" kinda shocked! I think they just said it enough times that it became fact.

[tedzan]

I might just attend that gathering. I'm glad it's in Jersey, otherwise Yogi might not attend if it required extensive traveling.

As I've noted in a prior post here, in their devastated state, some of the Yankees were looking for a "scapegoat" to blame.
And, I guess Jim Coates was the one.


TED Z

[Cy2009]

I just watched the Clemente play again. They showed it twice in a row during the discussion. There is no way that they get Clemente. If Coates was standing on 1st base when the ball was hit, Skowron would not be able to get the ball to first in time to get him out. The ball was weakly hit and Clemente was there just as Skowron got the ball. Blaming Coates is a disgrace.

You man up as a team. You win as a team and you lose gracefully as a team and you do not blame one man for one play that loses a 7-game series.

Cy

[mr2686]

What I really find amazing, is that of the WS's that the Yankees lost, starting in 1955, they took 4 out of the 5 series to 7 games (55,57,60,64) with only 63 being a 4-0 blow-out. That means with a few breaks here and there and their record of championships would look even more impressive than it already does. I wonder who the scape goats were for those years!

[Bigb13]

It Sucks for me I live in Long Island New York have Cablevision so we get no stations. That's not what my bill states. Can I view it online somewhere? Rob