Opinions: Fro-Joy Premium

[Ladder7]

As with most other counterfeited items. The dark areas are always too black where they meet the white areas (lack of transition), removing the real subtle folds and reflections in images. ie; the dark area beneath the R arm, under the brim and the front belt loops.

Nowadays, seems the savvy scammers are using blank pages from very old books etc, to feed their printers -these won't flouresce.

Look at every item as dirty 'til proven clean. And use the experienced eyes of the collectors on this board if in doubt.

If Beckett slabbed this reprint, they'd certainly be knuckleheads.

[Leon]

According to Beckett, a very reliable vintage grading company from the hundreds of vintage cards I have seen graded by them, it is of questionable authenticity. That is their stance. I even emailed them about this item after this thread was posted and they stand by their summation. So why is this such a problem? How can we be positive it IS authentic? I just re-read the thread and probably just missed something. Personally, I can't tell and might even have a hard time in person. best regards

btw, most grading companies will not come on a chat board to talk about their grades.....I don't recall it happening....thought it might have I don't remember it ...

[ullmandds]

upon my initial viewing of the above scan...fake was the first thing that registered to me...the photo doesn't appear very clear...and the coloring of the background seems wrong to me. I WAS duped by buying an uncut fro joy sheet back in college in the late eighties...and this one has a similar lack of quality to me...just my opinion.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Steve and Leon. This is the reason I initiated this thread, so experts could view the card and tell me what I need to know about this card.

Leon, I have fondly associated the name Beckett with sportscards for many years now. They have authenticated many vintage card issues but this isn't a common issue like T206's, etc. If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, The Beckett name should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue. As for the important part, I'm trying to figure out if this card is authentic, as I believe it is.

Steve, I do agree that an authentication company should err on the side of caution if there are any doubts. Assuming this is a counterfeit, the criminal happened to correctly measure the interior, depressed portion of the card. If this is a counterfeit, there has to be a way to positively identify the counterfeit characteristics of the card.

I have a Canon T1i, tripod, macro lens, detachable flash, remote switch etc. What do I need to look for? Trust me, I want to prove this card is a counterfeit and identify the associated characteristics.

Here's a link to an REA auction:

Beckett replied to my e-mail that PSA and/or SGC would reach the same conclusion: ALTERED, and would subsequently label the their conclusion the way Beckett did: QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.

I've been a PSA member for approx a decade and know that PSA would not indicate QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY on an altered item. PSA would say: ALTERED. Again, altered means authentic but enhanced, right?

I did like the fact that Beckett replied to my e-mail, and I understand why they wouldn't post on this forum. I also like the fact that Beckett, a name I have associated with our hobby for a long time now, is bold enough to authenticate Fro Joy's. I like their holders, their fair prices.......and the Beckett name.

If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, Beckett should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Peter.

[Leon]

Each time that I have given Beckett cards, which have issues, they have explained in full, and to my satisfaction, why something is the way it is. Heck, if you think you know something different, and have firm reasoning behind it, I am positive they will listen. I know part of the process for determining authenticity is by examining the printing process, ink and patterns. I am aware they do that with very good objectivity, based on processes from the era, as part of their evaluation. I wouldn't look so much at the other attributes (size, trimming, wear etc...) before I was comfortable with that one. regards...

oh yeah, you don't really need to make 20?pt bold letters. Most members can see with the normal writing. You could bold it or underline it, but those big letters don't really help your cause very much. We understand you are upset.

[Clutch-Hitter]

OK Leon. Thank you for your time. This is a great hobby, but it's very frustrating sometimes. I'm going to hunt the seller down now and send this back to him.

I appreciate everyone's time, as always.

By the way, Leon, I wanted to make these letters real big and bold but I stopped myself!

[teetwoohsix]

I think in a case like this it would be nice if they did give you more of a detailed explanation of how they came to their conclusion. Where's Frank W. and his blacklight?

Good luck, I hope you get some answers.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Clayton. It would have been helpful if they did provide some details at least.

I contacted the seller. He said he'll refund my money after I return the card, so that's good.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Frank. If you look at the Ebay auction link at the beginning of this thread, you'll notice in the ask a question section that someone told the seller his premium should be black instead of blue. The seller apparently looked at the description and changed it to black, adding he didn't know why he said blue to start with.

I don't think that seller is changing it just because that guy said something. The card I have has just a hint of blue. It's very, very subtle, so much so that my wife and I looked at this card for a while trying to figure out if it had blue or not. It has a hint.

The seller said the same thing about the condition of this card. He said why would someone make something like that?

[fkw]

PS. If Bob reads this.... the SCD needs to change the description to include the words "B&W" instead of "printed in Blue"

The OPs looked sort of blue to me, but I thought thats the way they should look. Ive never seen one of these in person.

after zooming in on the Legendary Auctions one, I can see slight differences in the contrast under arm, boldness of signature, etc., but they are not obvious until you look for them.

If it is a fake its a good one and fooled me, I almost bid on it myself, mainly for the reason I had never seen a fake before.

Makes no sense to go through all that trouble of finding the paper and printing this out then damaging it to the point where it loses 90%+ of its value. ??Lots of work for less than $100 profit??