Fro Joy Babe Ruth Cards

[Clutch-Hitter]

I bought it, received it, held it, deemed it counterfeit, received a refund with shipping. The seller would not provide his return address so I could send it back, although he would've had to send money for return shipping, or better yet come get it himself!

It was listed as being sold from Miss but shipped from just south of my location in Alabama.

The seller claimed he had it for many years.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

I bought it, received it, held it, deemed it counterfeit, received a refund with shipping. The seller would not provide his return address so I could send it back, although he would've had to send money for return shipping, or better yet come get it himself!

It was listed as being sold from Miss but shipped from just south of my location in Alabama.

The seller claimed he had it for many years.

I think many of these types of reprints, cutouts, fakes etc.....originated in the early 1980's....so he definitely could have had it for 20+ years. I think the one you showed was definitely cut from a sheet and the real sheets are very scarce. I would go with your opinion on this one..... regards

[vintagecpa]

I would love to hear more information about a plate that was found and additional cards were printed after 1928. I wonder how many other plates exist from other issues.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

I wonder how many other plates exist from other issues.

I'm also intrigued by this.

[fkw]

Leon, I am agreeing with you now that the Fro-Joys are tougher to authenticate, especially compared to the Geo Ruth Candy cards which Ive followed much longer.

On the Fro-Joys..... the more I looked into them last night, the more I was confused, many slabbed examples I believe are not authentic and I just cant trust them. The only one I trust is that sheet that was found in original envelope with the premium (all framed together).

Before this thread was brought up I concentrated on the Fro-Joy Portrait card as thats the one I was seeking to buy and I think I still can tell the difference on it. But the others I dont have characteristics to look for yet.

Here is a scan I just made using the sheet card found with orig envelope and the larger card posted above.
scanner setting may have something to do with the contrast , but Im sure if they were next to each other it would be easy to tell them apart too.


left card is a known authentic card


On a slightly related note... I have dozens of scans of the Geo Ruth Candy Co. cards (slabbed, raw, in 1930s scrapbooks, etc.) and there are 3 different types, with 2 different croppings of the photos. 1 type show more image on one or more borders while the other show more image on other borders. below, example of the chase card #6



I will one day make comparison images of the other #s too.

[Zach Wheat]

Frank,

Are there any differences in the paper/gloss? Thanks

Zach Wheat

[deadballpaul]

Even if the original printing plates were used decades later, the ink would still need to be duplicated, etc... A good microscope & an original for comparison should detect the difference.

[Clutch-Hitter]

This is a counterfeit/reprint:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

I would love to hear more information about a plate that was found and additional cards were printed after 1928. I wonder how many other plates exist from other issues.

I would love to hear more too. As far as other printing plates existing I have not heard any stories about them. regards

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

I would love to hear more too. As far as other printing plates existing I have not heard any stories about them. regards

I have print blocks from a few 50's/60's postcards, 2 baseball and 2 hockey. I could easily pull a decent print from them on paper. I don't have anything available to me that could produce enough pressure to do cardboard. But old art/typograph printing presses are out there and aren't too expensive
Black ink would be fairly easy to duplicate, even older ink. The mix is very simple and all the stuff is readily available. Colors are tougher, but possible if you know what went into them. Many ink companies kept that secret. The old paper or cardboard would be dificult but not impossible. Also not all modern papers react to blacklight.

The type of printing leaves traces of what process made the printed item, and most fakes are done with the wrong process. The extreme closeup pics show 2 very different processes.

A comparison with a different item - Comparing a Fro-Joy to a postcard in this case - isn't going to be valid aside from determining what process was used. It could rule something a fake if for instance the process wasn't used during the time period of the item, like a suposed 1860 print made by rotogravure, but it won't tell you much else.

Steve B

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by steve B

I have print blocks from a few 50's/60's postcards, 2 baseball and 2 hockey. I could easily pull a decent print from them on paper. I don't have anything available to me that could produce enough pressure to do cardboard. But old art/typograph printing presses are out there and aren't too expensive
Black ink would be fairly easy to duplicate, even older ink. The mix is very simple and all the stuff is readily available. Colors are tougher, but possible if you know what went into them. Many ink companies kept that secret. The old paper or cardboard would be dificult but not impossible. Also not all modern papers react to blacklight.

The type of printing leaves traces of what process made the printed item, and most fakes are done with the wrong process. The extreme closeup pics show 2 very different processes.

A comparison with a different item - Comparing a Fro-Joy to a postcard in this case - isn't going to be valid aside from determining what process was used. It could rule something a fake if for instance the process wasn't used during the time period of the item, like a suposed 1860 print made by rotogravure, but it won't tell you much else.

Steve B

Steve B,

Thanks, very interesting, and that about comparing cards to postcards, etc makes sense.

If there was a Fro Joy printing plate, wouldn't there be more of them to offer? Would a printing plate be for an entire sheet (applies to my previous question, just sheets, or singles and sheets)?

Regarding the little frame/box on the reverse, my SCD catalog has a front/back picture of a Fro Joy with the solid box, no gaps at the corners. I'm getting the impression that I'm not the only one unsure of that box.

Disregard my comment about the facial features on the REA, can't tell for sure because of over exposure in the picture/scan. In my reprint, it looks like Ruth has two black eyes in addition to the shadow of his hat bill. The authentic one just has the hat bill shadow.

Here's the picture from the SCD catalog:

[IMG][/IMG]

[steve B]

The plate or print block could be for any combination of cards or sheets that would fit the press. And the presses come in a variety of sizes. So they could have run the sheets as single sheets, or as multiple sheets on one big piece of paper then cut them apart. It would depend on how many sheets they wanted, and what equipment the printer had.

Current lithography plates can make over a million impressions under the right conditions. Older systems didn't do as well.

As far as why there aren't more, they just didn't print as many. And the people doing the reprinting probably only did one batch.

Places using systems that use print blocks or steel plates will usually save them if they aren't worn out. Offset lithography plates are usually aluminum and get recycled. Old fashioned lithography stones were thick and expensive, and were usually etched flat to be reused.

The sheets as a premium could have been done by a different process than the regular cards since only a few would have been needed, maybe 2-5000? . The layout of the premium sheet wouldn't have been used for the regular cards. There's just too much paper that would be cut off and wasted.

The microscopic image from post 27 looks like it was done by a printing block. You can see impressions of the raised square parts that printed the dots, and the ink that squeezed out around the edges of them. The other image there looks too even to have been done with the same sort of block.

the fakes almost certainly wouldn't have been done with a block because of the expense, but I'd guess that the print run was also around 5000. Later ones like the color ones could have been printed in higher numbers. If they didn't sell for much, a collection of the various fakes couldbe interesting.

Steve B

[steve B]

The plate or print block could be for any combination of cards or sheets that would fit the press. And the presses come in a variety of sizes. So they could have run the sheets as single sheets, or as multiple sheets on one big piece of paper then cut them apart. It would depend on how many sheets they wanted, and what equipment the printer had.

Current lithography plates can make over a million impressions under the right conditions. Older systems didn't do as well.

As far as why there aren't more, they just didn't print as many. And the people doing the reprinting probably only did one batch.

Places using systems that use print blocks or steel plates will usually save them if they aren't worn out. Offset lithography plates are usually aluminum and get recycled. Old fashioned lithography stones were thick and expensive, and were usually etched flat to be reused.

The sheets as a premium could have been done by a different process than the regular cards since only a few would have been needed, maybe 2-5000? . The layout of the premium sheet wouldn't have been used for the regular cards. There's just too much paper that would be cut off and wasted.

The microscopic image from post 27 looks like it was done by a printing block. You can see impressions of the raised square parts that printed the dots, and the ink that squeezed out around the edges of them. The other image there looks too even to have been done with the same sort of block.

the fakes almost certainly wouldn't have been done with a block because of the expense, but I'd guess that the print run was also around 5000. Later ones like the color ones could have been printed in higher numbers. If they didn't sell for much, a collection of the various fakes couldbe interesting.

Steve B