Colgan Proofs/Squares

[DixieBaseball]

Interesting thoughts, Frank. That seems very possible. I really don't think these are proofs and several have stated good reasons why they are not, but they are definitely squares and probably from a candy version like Colgan's, so we continue to affiliate them as Colgan's squares, but may in fact be Autosales square's, or some other candy maker who used the same images as Colgan's. I still need to confirm that all the images are exact to their Colgan counterpart, as I think that if one were different, it might lend itself to "proof" that these are not Colgan's at all, but simply a Uncatalogued Square. If that were the case, maybe over time we could correct the record. I feel we certainly can avoid calling them proofs going forward and by no means does that diminish their rarity as I don't recall seeing 2 of any example, but surely they exist. There are very few around, that is for sure.

[millerhouse]

So many of these squares have appeared from so many different sources that there can be no question that these are in no way proof cards. (Some have paper residue on the back, while a number do not. This only proves that some were glued into a scrapbook at some point -- not at all uncommon for the time.) Alan Hager, never exactly a leading authority (despite having published a book), appears to be the person most responsible for the "Colgans proof" nonsense, but, given that he apparently had a small stack of these himself (graded, I believe, by ASA), the appellation came loaded with self-interest.

Unfortunately, every other attempt to catalog these is equally mired in speculation. E254-2 is only slightly more likely than anything else. While they do make use of the Colgans pictures, need I remind board members that the reuse of images in E, D and T cards from this era was rampant? Mino Cigarettes had nothing to do with American Caramel (as far as I can tell), which may or may not have had anything to do with General Baking, who may or may not have had anything to do with either E101 or E102 -- or, for that matter, Niagara Baking. Yet all freely used images from the other sets.

Until someone stumbles onto the holy grail, like, say, the camera-shaped candy box with which the now-obviously miscatalogued W555s were issued, the W-miscellaneous catagory is the only place to put them. (E254-2 is pure guesswork.) And, in the absence of a W-listing (Leon, please feel free to pick one.), calling them square "Colgans" at least lets people know what one is discussing.

Best of the New Year to everyone,

Millerhouse

[DixieBaseball]

What other issues are the Colgan images on? (My focus is on minor leaguer's, so I don't have a handle on the major leaguer's) My image of the Babb, is the only time I have seen that image used, the best I recall. I know Babb's card in the T210 series is of him fielding, and I think Colgan's is the only time that image was used for him...
Dan - Thanks for your input... So we have a Uncatalogued Square Candy Issue and for reference purposes, we call them Colgan squares, for familarity.

My original question about the Colgan images matching up exactly with these Uncatalogued squares, tells me that perhaps there may need to be some work/research in that area just to make sure all the Colgan images line up exactly with this issue. I don't think anyone has actually verified all of them.

Good Info guys -

[nolemmings]

It appears from the Old Cardboard checklist that there are several confirmed square cards of players who are depicted on more than one team in Colgans (like Babb), and that in each instance, the square card is captioned with the same team as the e254 Colgans, not the later e270. This suggests that these were made before Autosales took over the Colgan brand.

[DixieBaseball]

Todd - I went back through and read some good observations in the thread and John Remington made mention of Daubert being with Memphis only in 1909. I looked it up on baseballreference and it appears that Daubert spent the last 1/3rd of the season in Toledo and the first 2/3rds of the season in Memphis. So, with Daubert being depicted with Memphis, that seems to answer the time frame for Colgan's (1909) and Autosales...

One thing I find interesting that stands out, there is only 1 southern league team represented in this issue and that of course is Memphis. Why only Memphis ? Perhaps this was a test issue, as someone suggested earlier in the thread. Also, in looking at the SCD, there are 3 players from Memphis : Babb, Bauerwald, and Daubert that are depicted on squares. In virtually every other T or E set, when 1 southern league team like Memphis has players in that set, usually Nashville or other Southern League teams are featured. This set screams test issue or production shut down after a very short run of squares hit the market or advertising examples, salesman samples, etc. If this was a Colgan's issue where are the 2 Nashville players, like in the E254 set ? Where are the other Southern League examples ? The SCD from 2009 shows 49 different players. If anyone has an 10 or 11 SCD, it would be interesting to see if more have been added...

[nolemmings]

It's my understanding that Colgan's printed e254s from 1909-1911, and that Autosales did not get involved until e270. All of the square Colgans seem to correspond to the 1909 e254. I can't explain the absence of Atlanta Crackers, but maybe the reason there are no other Southern Association/Southern League square Colgans (except Memphis as you noted) is because there were no corresponding 1909 e254s for those players. It appears the Birmingham and Chatt players would have been printed after 1909, and while the two Nashville players were there in '09, they were also there in 1910---maybe their e254s were not issued until then. I'm just going on some research from Baseballreference.com tonight, so if you have better info, then I'll gladly defer.

[FrankWakefield]

I always worry when someone starts dating an issue by the team indicated for a depicted player. I usually think of Willie Mays. He's up with the New York Giants in 1951. The Giants move to San Francisco for the 1958 season, Willie moves with them. A card of Mays in 1954 could show Willie with an "NY Giants" hat. But so could a card from 1964 or 1974. In May of 1972 he was traded to the NY Mets. So a 1974 card could show him with any of the 3 teams. But, if a card shows him with a "NY Mets" hat, then it seems highly likely that the card would be from 1972 or afterward.

My recollection is that Auto Sales got involved around 1912. Somewhere there's a thread about the tins that would fine tune that date. I think the round cards were still going into tins then.

Maybe the square cards were a regional issue, or maybe in a few regions... I once thought there was only one of each back when I thought they were proofs. But sometime I saw where one of the square ones was offered for sale when I knew the fellow who already had that one, so I figured there must be more than one of at least some of the players depicted. Since then I think I've seen other duplicates. I still lean toward the square ones being something that came out on a limited basis after the Colgan's issue.

In my American Card Catalog, Mr. Burdick has E254 Stars of the Diamond, Colgans Chips 1 1/2 round b&w. E255 is taken, it is for Tradesmen, Kis-Me Gum. E270 Baseball Players, Violet or mint chips, 1 3/8 round, 2 series. In my book E286 Ju Ju Drums is the last E card listed. Maybe these square cards should be E287's.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

Interesting thoughts, Frank. That seems very possible. I really don't think these are proofs and several have stated good reasons why they are not, but they are definitely squares and probably from a candy version like Colgan's, so we continue to affiliate them as Colgan's squares, but may in fact be Autosales square's, or some other candy maker who used the same images as Colgan's. I still need to confirm that all the images are exact to their Colgan counterpart, as I think that if one were different, it might lend itself to "proof" that these are not Colgan's at all, but simply a Uncatalogued Square. If that were the case, maybe over time we could correct the record. We certainly can avoid calling them proofs going forward and by no means does that diminish their rarity as I don't recall seeing 2 of any example, but surely they exist. There are very few around, that is for sure.

Good thoughts, Jeremy. My thought on these has always been that they are not proofs (they have 0 attributes of proofs) and I have labeled them as an E254 variation, say E254-2. There are duplicate examples of players so that also helps rule out the "proof" label. There is more than one Cobb and I believe I even sold one before. I've handled about 20 of them in total. A larger group of them was once glued in an album and that is where the "black remnants on back" statements come from. I doubt very seriously those black paper remnants had anything to do with the mfg of them. Neat little cards imo...but then too I like esoteric stuff.

edited to add- Millerhouse- we were posting at the same time. Great minds think alike ....and thanks for lending your expertise.....One of these days I would love to see your type collection!!

[ethicsprof]

very interesting thread!
the daubert looks like a reverse to me----still fascinating if it's the only one of the whole bunch with this difference.
i have only the one square camnitz and am wondering as you indicate just
how rare these square beauties are----have you done a survey to see what
folks have or is there data already out there regarding numbers of these squares. I like yourself have seen only a few in the last several years.

best,
barry

[DixieBaseball]

I received a few private emails regarding the post, and one individual has maybe a dozen or so duplicates and the 2009 SCD only list 49 known players but according to another person, there may be closer to 60-80 different players known or even more. (We need to start a Ted Z type checklist and keep it open-ended for future expansion) These Colgan Square's are definitely rare and perhaps my guess at this point is there is anywhere from 1-5 examples of any of the known players. (Purely a guess, until more research is done - I would bet it is more like 2-3 on average with some lucky folks out there owning maybe the only example) We need to shake some trees.

[oaks1912]

I'm aware of 4 cards in the set which have reversed images from their E-254 counterpart.... Bridwell, Brockett, Daubert, Parent ....... Another quirk of the set. The Pirates players are indicated as "Pittsburg" on the squares, even though they may indicate "Pittsburgh" on the E-254....

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Mark for the input - (I believe the last we spoke was the Chicago National-Good to hear from you again!) That info is helpful. The quirk's are the only thing that separates this from the Colgan's images, so maybe this info will be helpful. I still scratch my head why Memphis ? If we ever find out who put these out, that question will get answered, I bet. Just strange that 1 southern league team was put out and 3 players from it. Maybe we should concentrate on the Memphis players not featured in the squares, but are featured in the E254's. Crandall, Wauner... ?? Was Wauner & Crandall released at different times from Babb, Bauerwald, and Daubert ?

[nolemmings]

According to Baseballreference.com, both Wauner (really Wanner) and Crandall did not join Memphis until 1910, which of course is consistent with the premise that these square cards are tied to 1909.