Colgan Proofs/Squares

[FrankWakefield]

From Mr. Ricard Egan...

"Part 3: An anonymous paper issue, not yet cataloged, has been located which uses photos from E-254. The titles of the cards have been removed and a printed title added in the bottom obverse. The photos are definately from E-254 as some are known with lettering that covered the photo in place although the background and associated lettering has been removed. The following players are known, in some cases the photos have been reversed, and incorrected spellings corrected." (sic)

1. AMES, New York Nat'l.
2. BABB, Memphis
3. BAERWALD, Memphis
4. BAILEY, St. Louis Am. L.
5. BAKER, Phila. Am. L.
6. BATES, Phila. Nat'l L.
7. BEAUMONT, Boston Nat'l L.
8. BECKER, Boston Nat'l L.
9. BRIDWELL, New York Nat'l L. (rev.)
10. BROCKETT, New York Am. L. (rev.)
11. BURCH, Brooklyn
12. BUSH, Detroit
13. CAMNITZ, Pittsburgh
14. CHANCE, Chicago Nat'l. L.
15. CHASE, New York Am. L.
16. CLARKE, Pittsburgh
17. COBB, Detroit
18. COLLINS, Phila. Am. L.
19. COVELESKI, Cincinnati
20. CRISS, St. Louis Am. L.
21. DAUBERT, Memphis (rev)
22. DAVIS, Phila. Am. L.
23. DEMMETT, New York, Am. L.
24. DEVLIN, New York, Am. L.
25. DOUGHTERTY, Chicago Am. L.
26. ELBERFIELD, New York Am. L.
27. ENGLE, New York Am. L.
28. EVANS, St. Louis, Nat'l L.
29. EVERS, Chicago, Nat'l L.
30. GASPAR, Cincinnati
31. GETZ, Boston Nat'l L.
32. GIBSON Pittsburgh
33. HARTSELL, Phila. Am. L.
34. HARTZELL, St. Louis Am. L.
35. HEWLEY, Rochester
36. HOOPER, Boston Am. L.
37. JENNINGS, Detroit
38. Joss, Cleveland
39. KNABE, Phila. Nat'l L.
40. KNIGHT, New York Am. L.
41. KONETCHY, St. Louis Nat'l L.
42. LAFITTE, Rochester
43. LANGE, Chicago Amer. L.
44. LEACH, Pittsburgh
45. LELIVELT, Detroit
46. LORD, Boston
47. LUDWIG, Milwaukee
48. MADDOX, Pittsburgh
49. McINTYRE, Detroit
50. MILLER, Pittsburgh
51. MITCHELL, Cincinnati
52. MULLER, Detroit
53. MURPHY, Phila. Am. L.
54. PARENT, Chicago Am. L.
55. PASKERT, Cincinnati
56, PEITZ, Louisvile
57. PFEISTER, Chicago Nat'l L.
58. PHILLIPE, Pittsburgh
59. PURTELL, Chicago Am. L.
60. RAYMOND, New York Nat'l L.
61. RUCKER, Brooklyn
62. SCHARDT, Milwaukee
63. SEYMOUR, New York Nat'l L.
64. SNODGRASS, New York Nat'l L.
65. SPADE, Cincinnati
66. STEINFELDT, Chicago Nat'l L.
67. STONE, St. Louis Am. L.
68. Sullivan, Louisville
69. SUMMERS, Detroit
70. UNGLAUB, Washington Am. L.
71. WADDELL, St. Louis Am. L.
72. WAGNER, Pittsburgh
73. WHITE, Buffalo
74. WILSON, Pittsburgh
75. WILTSE, New York Nat'l L.
76. WOODS, Buffalo
77. ZIMMERMAN, Chicago Nat'l L.

On the Paskert card one can see the "CIA" that is printed on the collar but the remainder is removed.

All cards compared are same picture."

THAT, is what is in Mr. Egan's Handbook. It is at the end of his list XXVII.

I incorrectly listed Parent as with Pittsburgh, Egan shows him with Chicago Am. L., I've made that correction. 1-5-11 11am.

[FrankWakefield]

Bill Schardt was with Milwaukee only one season, 1910. Bill Ludwig was there for 1910 and part of 1911. Ed Laffite was with Rochester only for the 1910 season. That makes 1909 or earlier an extremely unlikely date for these square cards, nay impossible date for the cards.

So it seems that whoever supplied photographs and or cards to Colgans, and then AutoSales as they continued with the Colgans line, that this supplier later provided these square cards to someone, and this would have occurred AFTER the commencement of issue/distribution of E254s in 1909. Mr. Egan's comment about the letters on Paskert's shirt suggest that the round Colgans cards came first. Maybe the supplier/printer had a deal where they were obligated to supply round cards only to Colgans and their successor. So what they next sent out were these square cards.

And Egan's List notes 3 of the square cards having reversed images from the Colgans issue.

[nolemmings]

Not so fast.

I have seen nothing to prove that these cards could not have been printed in 1909, and I maintain that they were, perhaps more than any other year. All I have been shown is that one player could not have been produced until 1912 and a few others are shown with their 1910 teams. Now we know that t206, p2 pins and px7 were all produced over a span of years in the 1909-1912 range (depending on set), and there is nothing to suggest that the same could not be said for these square cards. More importantly, Colgans themselves were issued over a period of these years, with new cards added and team changes made. Under these circumstances, I believe it is a fallacy to say that because one was made in 1912 they all must have been, just as it is to say that because some were made after 1909 it is impossible for any to have been made that year.

Millerhouse says Harry Lord has a square for both Boston and Chicago, so changes were apparently made to these cards when teams changed in 1910. Also, Egan shows Harry Davis with Philly, and the Goodwin auction has him on Cleveland, so there’s another example of a square with different teams. Yet from Egans list are 13 players who had more than one e254; i.e., cards where team changes were made. Of these, all but one is depicted on his square card with the team he played on in 1909. Two, Demmitt and Elberfeld, were on different teams in1909 and 1910, and have different Colgan e254s. Each of these has a square card showing the 1909 team. Rube Waddell has three different e254s, two which show team changes from 1911, yet his square card shows him with his 1909-10 team. More than another dozen others from Egan’s list had an e254 and then an e270, the latter reflecting team changes, yet none appear on square cards for anything other than the original team. Now why would the manufacturer take the time to update Davis and Lord on these squares but none of the others? Better yet, why, if the entire kaboodle was not printed or issued until 1912 or later would the manufacturer not take the time to make obvious corrections which it knew about from e254 and e270? And where, please, is there ANY evidence that Autosales had anything to do with this? It appears that maybe one square card reflects a name/team combination that might have existed after they acquired Colgans. How does that equate to some belief that they had control of all these square cards and decided to allow distribution by someone else later on? Many many of these images are Horner portraits, and appear in other card sets or Spalding/Reach guides. Why should we believe that Autosales had some sort of exclusivity on who got to use these images, when there is evidence that they were used elsewhere and often?

It would be nice if someone were to track the five year span when Colgans were made, i.e. 1909-1913, for each player in the square card set. From there it could be determined the first year a particular square could have been printed, not counting for errors (and there are some–Jeremy, did you know the two B’Ham players on e254, who you wondered about as not having squares, NEVER played for Birmingham; so too Egan apparently lists Parent for Pittsburgh where he never played) I do this for some sets I collect but have no stake here. Jeremy, wanna step up?

[DixieBaseball]

Todd - It's an open discussion and you make a compelling case as well. I value all of the discussion thus far and the truth is none of us know, but can only surmise the possibilities. Your points are taken and at this point it is conceivable these squares were over a span of years. I love the arguments both ways, and while I think the 1912 argument appears obvious, I would not go as far as tossing the Autosales angle into this. At this point all we know is these are Unknown Player Squares with image's used on Colgan's. I think the likelihood these are some derivative of Colgan's or at least a competitor is more likely than not. With that being said, I would not bet on it. (How's that for riding the fence)

[FrankWakefield]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Seems to me some of these square things could have been made in 1909. And some were definitely in 1910 and later.

But back there where you said that the square cards are 'tied' to 1909, that just isn't so.

I thought the goal here was to show that these square cards weren't predecessors to the Colgans Chips cards. Nothing in what Egan wrote suggests that the square cards were proofs or predecessors.

I've contemplated the 'Pittsburg' vs 'Pittsburgh' thing. It was "Pittsburg" from about 1890 to about 1911. Then it reverted to "Pittsburgh". We know the white border and brown border tobacco cards just have the "g" on the end. What do you guys thing about that?