Blyleven & Alomar get in the HOF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Rob:

You would be right but I don't do the registry thing. I did pick up Alomar & Blyleven rookies on e-bay this past week in preparation though. I will be sending them in to SGC this week.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

[martyogelvie]

The only thing that bothers me about the writers is how can a player garner only 15% his first year of eligibility (I think i read thats what Blyleven got his first year) to over 75% in 15 or so years??? I can see garnering a few more votes here or there but to go from 15 - 75 plus is asinine to me!

I think Alamor is a perfect example of how the system should work.. he came close but didn't make it his first year but was easly in his second.

I think that if your not in after 5 years, your off the ballot.. period. It certainly would help keep some of the marginal players that seem to get better over time out of the hall.

[Chris-Counts]

At least they got it right with Blyleven and Alomar. They blew it with Larkin, but I suspect he'll get in next year. As for Surhoff, Tino Martinez and Grissom getting votes, it's proof that just because somebody pays a guy to write about baseball for a living doesn't mean he knows anything about the game ...

[tothrk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

I never looked at it that way. I was on the fence about Bert, but this is swaying me towards the notch below HOF camp. With players like Sutton, longevity bothers me. Just because your career lasted longer than a MEARS auction and you reached a magical number doesn't mean you should get in.

[doug.goodman]

Finally

[oldjudge]

Rob--The best he ever finished in a 22 year career was third in the Cy Young voting; he was in the top ten only four times and an All Star only twice. In eight of twenty-two seasons he was at or below .500 in W/L %. He won twenty games only once, but lost seventeen games four times. He was a very good pitcher, not a HOF pitcher.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Rob--The best he ever finished in a 22 year career was third in the Cy Young voting; he was in the top ten only four times and an All Star only twice. In eight of twenty-two seasons he was at or below .500 in W/L %. He won twenty games only once, but lost seventeen games four times. He was a very good pitcher, not a HOF pitcher.

He was a very, very good pitcher for a very, very long time. When you make your league's yearly top 10 list a collective 60+ times in the categories of wins, complete games, innings, strikeouts, shutouts and ERA, and win 287 games despite support of 2 or fewer runs in over 1/3 of your career starts, and finish your career 3rd in career strikeouts and 9th in shutouts, I think you go into the Hall.

Whenever the HOF becomes a place only for the greatest of the greats, then I'd be the first to vote Bert back out (along with 50-75 others).

Anyways, I'm very happy for Bert - I've had the pleasure of chatting with him, and followed his career from the very beginning, listening to his first start on the radio back in 1970. I aspired to be a pro baseball player at the time, and thought it was just too cool that a teenager just a few years older than me was pitching for my local team.

[Anthony S.]

In 1973 Blyleven finished 7th in the Cy Young voting.

There were 9 starting pitchers who finished in the top 10 of the voting that year (Hiller was the lone reliever). Of those 9:

-Blyleven had the 2nd lowest ERA, 2.52. Palmer was first at 2.40.
-Blyleven had the lowest Whip.
-Blyleven had the 2nd most strikeouts. That was the year Ryan had 383.
-Blyleven threw the most shutouts. Nine. Nine shutouts.
-Blyleven had the highest WAR (I'll admit I don't care about WAR, but it suits my argument here)

Wouldn't you assume that the guy with the 2nd lowest ERA, the lowest WHIP, the 2nd most strikeouts, the most shutouts, and the best WAR would finish higher than 7th?

But Blyleven went 20-17, so those 17 losses (I have no idea what his run support was like in the losses), must have knocked him down to 7th in the voting. Except Wilbur Wood, who had an ERA a full run higher than Blyleven, lost 20 games that year, and finished ahead of Blyleven in the Cy Young Voting.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

He played 16 seasons after he left the Twins the first time and I think Carew was gone during his second stint.

[usernamealreadytaken]

The H-of-F will (or should) go the way of the diner's club card...

[oldjudge]

Johnny--He didn't make the All Star team because he wasn't good enough. Regardless of where they play, HOFers should make at least one of three All Star teams. He is almost an exact match for Tommy John. In fact, Tommy John was better, and he is not in the HOF.

[ChiefBenderForever]

You guys might be right, but if that is the case and Bert isn't good enough for the HOF then they have a lot of cleaning out to do of others who shouldn't be there.

[uffda51]

It looks like it's "Wait til Next Year" for Raul Mondesi.

Re: Blyleven. Warren Spahn won 20 games 13 times, 8 times leading the league in wins including five years in a row, and made 14 All-Star teams.

Bert won 20 gmes once, never lead the league in wins, and made three all-star teams.

He may well be the first player born in the Netherlands to make the Hall.

[cdn_collector]

Congrats Robbie!

Just like I said last year when Alomar didn't get in, I have a huge bias here. I'm thrilled he got into the HoF, and while I don't think there is any excuse ever to spit in somebody's face, I don't think it should come into the equation.

If we're going to start looking at character first, then there are some racists, bigots, cheaters, gamblers and even others that have spit in umpires faces that are already enshrined and need to have their plaques taken down.


Regards,

Richard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IF Bert is in, Tommy John and Jim Kaat should be in too, they are very comparable and it is hard for me to justify including only one of them. That said, I would not vote for any of them, but would put them one rung down.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

[mr2686]

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

[Anthony S.]

The stat I simply can't get past when considered his HOF credentials is the 60 shutouts. Nowadays that's 2 full seasons of complete game shutouts. Not only is it 9th all-time, but the first 5 guys on the list were deadballers for either their entire career (Young, Mathewson, Alexander) or for the part of their career during which they registered the vast majority of their shutouts (Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander).

The only players whose careers started after 1911 who've pitched more shutouts are Spahn (63), Ryan (61), and Seaver (61). That's heady company. Ryan needed nearly 100 more starts than Blyleven to get that extra shutout, but then again he didn't have very good stuff.

And it's not a tortured statistic like "quality start," it means that 60 times in his career the opposing team couldn't do jack squat against him. More often than Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, Feller, Perry, Niekro, etc, etc., etc.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

I agree. In another thread I used Nolan Ryan as an example of using certain stats to question his HOF status (for the record I of course think he is a 1st ballot HOF).

Nolan Ryan had 9 seasons where he was a 500 or worse pitcher and he never won a CY Young award. Blyleven also had a much better K/BB ratio.

You really have to look at the whole picture. All Star games and Cy Young awards are a bit overrated IMO. Marichal never won a Cy Young award!!!!