Appease me, please....one more time T206/T213/T215?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I'll try to keep this brief and if anyone cares for me to elaborate on anything just let me know.

The T206 set follows a very rigid rule when it comes to subject groups being discontinued. Once the print runs for the 150-350 Only group had concluded and the 350 Only group printing began the 150-350 Only cards were never printed again. Same goes for the transition to the 460 Series. No 150-350 or 350 Only subject is brought back during those print runs. The Coupon Type 1 set does just that. It combines 150-350 Subjects with 350 Only subjects. By the time the 350 Only group was being printed the Southern League players had been pulled from printing.discontinued. Once the print runs for the 150-350 Only group had concluded and the 350 Only group printing began the 150-350 Only cards were never printed again.

As far as the back design is concerned it does look like the American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, and Drum, but that is where the set similarities end. We know that the A+B+C+D group front images were preprinted and then printed with all four back designs. The sets are a match with the same players included and excluded. The Coupon Type 1 set includes players that are no prints in the A+B+C+D group. This shows me that the Coupon set is unrelated other than back design.

I believe the Coupon Type 1's were a unique set created using existing T206 materials to save costs but not part of the T206 set.

1st......Your...." Once the print runs for the 150-350 Only group had concluded and the 350 Only group printing began the 150-350 Only cards were never printed again."

Not true....the T215-1 set has a confirmed Matty (white cap) card in it.

2nd......Your...." The Coupon Type 1 set includes players that are no prints in the A+B+C+D group. "

Not so....Most of the 48 Major League (ML) subjects in the T213-1 set can be found with AB 350, BL 350, CY 350, and DRUM backs.
Furthermore, I count as many as 15 of these 48 ML subjects that are in the T215-1 set.

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Hey people, if we are to have a serious debate on this subject lets get our facts straight. So far, all I have seen is some people have some sort of loyal following to Burdick;
and, are averse to changing anything he proclaimed. But, he was NOT INFALLIBLE.
Others think, that the school of thought that COUPON-1 and RED CROSS-1 belong to the T206 family, lean that way because...." some people just want them to be T206s ".
The MONSTER is complicated enough, so what sane collector would want to add more T-brands to this complex mix ? ?

In my mind the one factual piece of evidence is illustrated in this scan. One artist employed by American Litho. designed these 5 backs in the Spring of 1910. And, 1000's of
WHITE-BORDERED, BROWN CAPTIONED T206 cards with these advertising backs were inserted in their respective cigarette packs in the Summer of 1910.



TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st......Your...." Once the print runs for the 150-350 Only group had concluded and the 350 Only group printing began the 150-350 Only cards were never printed again."

Not true....the T215-1 set has a confirmed Matty (white cap) card in it.

2nd......Your...." The Coupon Type 1 set includes players that are no prints in the A+B+C+D group. "

Not so....Most of the 48 Major League (ML) subjects in the T213-1 set can be found with AB 350, BL 350, CY 350, and DRUM backs.
Furthermore, I count as many as 15 of these 48 ML subjects that are in the T215-1 set.


Hey people, if we are to have a serious debate on this subject lets get our facts straight.

TED Z

Ted I always treat you with respect on the board regardless of how much I may disagree with you. Please show me the same respect and heed your own request to "get our facts straight" before posting. At least if you're going to respond regarding my posts give me the courtesy of reading it first or asking me to clarify before telling me to get my facts straight.

1) The first quote you posted by me was referring to the T206 set. The 215-1 set as you stated does include a Matty which is contradictory to how the T206 set was printed.

2) Yes the T213-1 set does include SOME of the players included in the T206 ABCD group but it more importantly includes some that were not printed in that group. That is a far more important point that shouldn't be ignored.

[ctownboy]

My simple question is this, if Burdick would have written his book in 1912 instead of when he did, would he have classified Coupon Type 1's as T206 or T213?

I can easily see him counting Coupon Type 1's as T206's if he had written the book in 1912 and then, if he updated the book in 1920 or so, counting Coupon Type 2's and 3's as a new category - T213's.

Why a new category? Because he would have already counted the first series Coupons as T206's and then he would either have had to drag them out and put them in the new category or put the two later series in T206 also. If he did this, then he might also have had to include T215's in the T206 series since the Type 1's are similiar to T206's.

The problem then, as I see it, is WHEN Burdick wrote his book. He wrote it years after the cards were produced and lumped them together based on the advertisements on the backs instead of the size, player content and similiarities on the fronts.

David

[Abravefan11]

I agree completely with Rhett and Barry as to why Burdick cataloged the T213-1 and T215-1 as he did. My opinion is he did the right thing but more than likely for the wrong reason.

[cfc1909]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st......Your...." Once the print runs for the 150-350 Only group had concluded and the 350 Only group printing began the 150-350 Only cards were never printed again."

Not true....the T215-1 set has a confirmed Matty (white cap) card in it.

2nd......Your...." The Coupon Type 1 set includes players that are no prints in the A+B+C+D group. "

Not so....Most of the 48 Major League (ML) subjects in the T213-1 set can be found with AB 350, BL 350, CY 350, and DRUM backs.
Furthermore, I count as many as 15 of these 48 ML subjects that are in the T215-1 set.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey people, if we are to have a serious debate on this subject lets get our facts straight. So far, all I have seen is some people have some sort of loyal following to Burdick;
and, are averse to changing anything he proclaimed. But, he was NOT INFALLIBLE.
Others think, that the school of thought that COUPON-1 and RED CROSS-1 belong to the T206 family, lean that way because...." some people just want them to be T206s ".
The MONSTER is complicated enough, so what sane collector would want to add more T-brands to this complex mix ? ?

In my mind the one factual piece of evidence is illustrated in this scan. One artist employed by American Litho. designed these 5 backs in the Spring of 1910. And, 1000's of
WHITE-BORDERED, BROWN CAPTIONED T206 cards with these advertising backs were inserted in their respective cigarette packs in the Summer of 1910.



TED Z

Ted you say Hey People but use Tims quote about getting facts straight.
You saying, getting your facts straight, doesn't mean your facts are correct.

You use the t215-1 Matty white cap as an example of the 150 back along with the 350 and the 460s in the 215 set. This alone separates the 215 set-That does not happen anywhere in the 206 set. There are no 150s printed along with later series backs. Once the 150 fronts were stopped being used the set does NOT use them again. That is how we knew the Red Hindu Matty portrait was a fake. Even when the RH Matty was in a graded holder we knew it was no good because of this rule and you use an example from 215 to prove your point when actually it separates the 215 from 206.

You can address other collectors that have a different opinion however you want but "getting your facts straight" is disrespectful. How would you feel if you were addressed this way.
Hmm. let me see, I bet if that happened you would tell them they are "reinventing the wheel".

My opinion is 213 and 215 are related to 206, in front image only. If you know 150s are not issued later in the 206 set you can see how and why Burdick separated these issues.

These sets are very complex and Burdick got this one right.