Appease me, please....one more time T206/T213/T215?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Fair enough, but wouldn't you suggest that T213-1 are closer to T206 than to T213-2 and T213-3?

This is where I think I view things a little differently than some. T213-1's are closer to "looking like" a T206 in all facets of it's composition than -2 and -3, but if it was not printed concurrently as part of the same set it's no more a T206 than either of the other two.

If we had the stones, paper, and equipment we could reproduce the images today and they would look and feel just like a T206, but I doubt anyone would say they are part of the set. This is why I feel putting so much emphasis on the appearance of the cards and how closely they do or don't resemble each other is not nearly as important as how the printing procedure and subject groups that make up the sets differ from T206.

[tedzan]

Sorry to chime in again, but what factual evidence do you have as proof of this......

" ...... but if it was not printed concurrently as part of the same set it's no more a T206 than either of the other two. "


The Standard Catalog dates this set as being issued in 1910 (as did Burdick). Over the years many of us "T206 dudes"
doing research on these cards have established that the 1910 COUPON set was very likel printed and issued during the
Summer of 1910.

Would you say that the was in the peak production period of the T206 set ?

Indeed it was, as this was the period that the 350 series was in production. And, I do not think you will deny that the
350 series of cards are the most plentiful of all the T206's.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

I think that Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal... those were the regular production product for ATT. Coupons were a lesser product. They got the hand-me-downs. They didn't get their thinner cards until later in the process. Wouldn't surprise me if Coupon didn't get their cards until the first line companies started inserting the 460 series cards.

What seems contemporaneous to us 100 years later may well have been a few months apart at the time.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Coupons were a lesser product. They got the hand-me-downs.

Frank I agree with this and it makes more sense to me that the Coupon set was comprised of existing images from the T206 set to save costs rather than ALC and ATC deviated from their T206 printing process only for this product.

[tedzan]

Tim

You have to be careful with this premise of yours, as it has an underlying fallacy......
"The proof again for me is that at no time in the T206 run did they print both 150-350 and 350 Only subjects at the same time."


From the printer's viewpoint at American Litho (ALC), in the Summer of 1910, all 48 Southern Lger's (SL) were no longer 150/350
subjects. They were simply 350 series subjects, since ALC had then switched to printing PIEDMONT 350 backs on all 48 SL cards.

Recall, that one factor that we both agree on is....that ALC pre-printed sheets with the front images. The backs of these sheets
were blank, awaiting ALC's printing of the various T-brands (as the demand from the various tobacco Factory's came in). Actually,
as far as the printer was concerned, these pre-printed sheets had NO series identification, since they were blank-backed.

Since the COUPON Tobacco Co. was a new acquisition by ATC, they most likely cobbled together in a hurry this COUPON set to get
these cards out to the New Orleans factory. So, some smart designer at ALC checked-out the Sporting News (or a Reach BB Guide)
and selected 20 ballplayers (from the 48 Southern Lger's) that played in the Southern Association.....and, included them along with
the 48 Major Leaguers to create the T213-1 set. It's simply as neat as that. It's not "Rocket Science"


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

You have to be careful with this premise of yours, as it has an underlying fallacy......
"The proof again for me is that at no time in the T206 run did they print both 150-350 and 350 Only subjects at the same time."


From the printer's viewpoint at American Litho (ALC), in the Summer of 1910, all 48 Southern Lger's (SL) were no longer 150/350
subjects. They were simply 350 series subjects, since ALC had then switched to printing PIEDMONT 350 backs on all 48 SL cards.

TED Z

Ted my premise is not a fallacy. The 48 Southern League players were not printed at the same time as 350 Only players. Yes they both exist with Piedmont 350 backs but they were not printed at the same time. I'm not sure how that statement is a fallacy.

After the Southern League players were pulled from printing there was another print run before the 350 Only players were introduced.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Since the COUPON Tobacco Co. was a new acquisition by ATC, they most likely cobbled together in a hurry this COUPON set to get
these cards out to the New Orleans factory. So, some smart designer at ALC checked-out the Sporting News (or a Reach BB Guide)
and selected 20 ballplayers (from the 48 Southern Lger's) that played in the Southern Association.....and, included them along with
the 48 Major Leaguers to create the T213-1 set. It's simply as neat as that. It's not "Rocket Science"

It might not be "Rocket Science" but it doesn't take wild speculation to figure it out either. The Coupon set was being marketed in the heart of the Southern Association and there were 20 available images on hand at ALC of Southern Association players that had been used in the T206 set. In fact 8 of these 20 did not play in the Southern Association in 1910. They were all selected in early 1909 to be included in the T206 set. So no smart designer needed to grab a guide and decide who to include in the T213-1 set. They had long before been chosen.

So without getting off on too many tangents please answer this one question before we move on:

Was there a time in the printing of the T206 set that the Southern Association players were being printed simultaneously with the 350 Only players?

**I edited this for the sake of accuracy. I originally posted that 10 of the 20 Southern Association players did not play in the league in 1910. The correct number is 8 as two remained in the league but played for different teams than the one listed on their card in the T213-1 set.

[Leon]

Really now, guys. The original question of this thread had to do with the thinking of T213-1 being classified, by Burdick, as a T206. It is painfully obvious ya'll don't care about the original question posed and are going off on more tangents than the number of liver pills Carter had. I think this is all great information about series', number of cards in rows, super duper Willy Wonka theories of short prints etc.....but it really has nothing to do with the original question. If ya'll really think Burdick gave that much thought to all of these elongated theories ya'll have surmised, then I need some of what ya'll are on. There is an elephant sitting in the corner of the room, his name is "Common Sense" and just like the emperor's clothes, no one sees it. I really feel it was as simple as Burdick seeing the different types of Coupon cards, seeing they didn't fit in with the T206's, and labeling them T213. He absolutely made a very concerted decision in how he classified them, keeping T206 in mind the whole time. Please carry on now .

[cfc1909]

this is the question

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

So without getting off on too many tangents please answer this one question before we move on:

Was there a time in the printing of the T206 set that the Southern Association players were being printed simultaneously with the 350 Only players?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Was there a time in the printing of the T206 set that the Southern Association players were being printed simultaneously with the 350 Only players?

Sorry Leon I just can't leave it alone when it comes to making sure factual information is being put forth on the board.

Ted - You did not answer my question above with a Yes or No so I am left to assume one of two things from you post.

1 - You are avoiding the direct question of whether they were printed simultaneously and mudding the argument by lumping the SL and 350 Only players under the broad "350 Series" group.

2 - You believe that by being "350 Series" subjects that SL and 350 Only subjects were printed simultaneously.

As I have stated before the Southern League subjects were carried over from the 150 series into the very first print run of the 350 series. When that was completed the Southern League players were pulled from production never to be printed again in the T206 set. After that there was another print run of 150-350 subjects with "350 Series" ad backs. Then these subjects were discontinued and the 350 Only players were introduced.

At no time during the T206 printing process were Southern Association players on the same stone coming off the same press being printed on the same sheet as 350 Only Subjects. In the Coupon set they were on the same stone being printed on the same sheet.

Again Leon sorry for jumping back in but I feel nothing is more important than sharing and defending the facts of the T206 set.

[tedzan]

AS I HAVE ALREADY RESPONDED IN A PRIOR POST........

Originally Posted by tedzan

From the printer's viewpoint at American Litho (ALC), in the Summer of 1910, all 48 Southern Lger's (SL) were no longer 150/350
subjects. They were simply 350 series subjects, since ALC had then switched to printing PIEDMONT 350 backs on all 48 SL cards.

TED Z

..............................................1909 .........................1909..................... ....1910



THEREFORE,
THE 1910 COUPON SET IS A COMBINATION OF "350 SERIES" SOUTHERN LEAGUERS (20 cards) AND "350-ONLY SERIES" MAJOR LEAGUERS (48 cards).


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - The proof again for me is that at no time in the T206 run did they print both 150-350 and 350 Only subjects at the same time.

As you know T206's began as preprinted sheets of front images that then had the back brands applied to them. This process is what helps us connect different back brands and trace the timeline and order of the T206 run.

No back brand in the T206 set contains both 150-350 subjects and 350 only printed on the same sheet so the preprinted sheets of front images could only be for Coupon Type 1's and not any other T206 back brand.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Standard Catalog dates this set as being issued in 1910 (as did Burdick). Over the years many of us "T206 dudes"
doing research on these cards have established that the 1910 COUPON set was very likel printed and issued during the
Summer of 1910.

Would you say that the was in the peak production period of the T206 set ?

Indeed it was, as this was the period that the 350 series was in production. And, I do not think you will deny that the
350 series of cards are the most plentiful of all the T206's.

TED Z

Sorry I neglected to answer your questions. Yes I agree the 350 series was the height of production in the T206 set. With that said I'm not sure what that would prove.

Concerning the "T206 dudes" I would have to know why they believe the Coupon Type 1 set was printed in the summer of 1910 to speak to that specifically.