American Caramel E121 series of 80 survey revisited

[rondiamond]

FIRST...is the 80 without variations? Then..
You are correct...I have never seen any of the cards which are on your list.
You are much more of a purist than I. And I thought I was serious about this
set! It was my first and still is my favorite(due to 20+ years of collecting).
Not sure how to handle PSA and SGC when they are too 'busy' to get things
straight....they say they use the major catalogs(for card investigation) but
no 'catalog' company has ever decided to grace my email page with any
explaination of their process for placing names on sets.

Good luck to all others(except when it concerns me completing this set)!!!

Best of health

Ron

[brianp-beme]

I thought I would update and consolidate some of the evolving E121-80 lists based upon recent finds and additions. Let us know if there any errors, omissions or additions. See Rhett's previous post on this thread (post # 14) for examples of the varieties of backs:

E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder
Aaron Ward


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Harry Heilman
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Thanks of course to everyone and especially Rhett for most of this great info.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, here is an updated list of my non-Type 1 holdings as of right now, (the "NNO" below is just part of my spreadsheet so don't pay attention to that)...

1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Dave Bancroft (Leaping)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Geo. J. Burns
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Cecil Causey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Eddie Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Rip" Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Phil" Douglas
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Frisch
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Mike" Gonzalez
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Harry Harper
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Wm. C. Jacobson
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Hugh Jennings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO M. J. McNally
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Emil Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO R. Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO John Rawlings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Roth
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Ed. Roush (C.F.)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Bill" Ryan
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Slim Sallee (No glove shows)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Shawkey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Pat" Shea
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Earl Smith
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Snyder
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Milton Stock
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Aaron Ward
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jake Daubert
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO William Fewster
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Alexander Gaston
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Harry Heilman
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Waite Hoyt
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Miller Huggins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Elmer Miller
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jack Quinn
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO George Whitted
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO "Pep" Young
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Walter Johnson (Hands chest)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Ray Schalk (Batting)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Rhett,

I have integrated your info on the Type 3 cards into its list, and have started a baby "Type 4 cards known to exist" list as well--personally I believe that these were not a real separate run, but more of a printing error.

Brian


E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
William Fewster
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Alexander Gaston
Harry Heilman
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
Aaron Ward
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Type 4 "Reversed Back with condensed first line" cards known to exist (example of this back on post 22):

Walter Johnson (hands at chest)
Joe Judge
Ray Schalk (batting)
George Sisler (throwing)

[old-baseball]

Brian / Rhett - Just want to make sure we're all talking the same language...

Type 4 - is the newly discovered (couple of months ago) reverse were the first line of printing has the tight spacing between the words. Type 1 (normal most common back) on the left and Type 4 (tighter spacing on first line plus in this case reversed) on the right.



What are we calling "reversed" back? Is it just "reversed" or Type 5? I think Brian is refering to it as Type 4 in his last post.

Anyway here's what I can offer:

I have a bunch of Type 2 cards - if you want me to identify them for you just let me know.

I have "Pat" Shea and Aaron Ward in both Type 2 and Type 3 in my collection.

Type 4 - tighter printing on first line
Sisler - Throwing (also reversed)

"Reversed" Backs
Bancroft (Batting)
Bush
Carey (Hands at Hips)
Daubert
May (no "S" at end)
Murphy
O'Neill
Pfeffer (Brooklyn)
Pipp
Toney (No Trees)
Veach (Arms Crossed)
Wingo

[rhettyeakley]

Kevin, you are correct about the "Type 4" back we are referring to. It has the condensed first line. It remains to be seen if these are more or less common than the Type 3's as it has only really come to light recently. My first inclination is slightly tougher than Type 3 but the sample size is pretty small.

About the "Reversed" back... I have seen the reversed back on Type 1, 3, and I think every Type 4 I have seen. I do not consider the "Reversed" back a variation at all just a printing goof of sorts. I haven't seen a Type 2 with the reversed back though even though it is the second most common of the backs. (Interesting isn't it?)

-Rhett

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Kevin and Rhett for getting me up to speed on what truly constitutes a Type 4 Reverse. I am pretty sure the Jennings and Milan I listed previously as Type 4's are just plain reversed backs, so I removed them from the list. I have corrected/updated that list to reflect Kevin's Sisler example as well. I have also updated the "Type 2 exclusive" list to remove the two cards that Kevin indicates he has Type 3 examples. Thanks for the info Kevin, and, as always, I appreciate the knowledgeable input of Rhett.

Brian