A case for the timeline of the T213-1 (COUPON) set

[tedzan]

Thanks for the nice words.

I haven't had my 2nd coffee yet this AM....but, I'm not sure I fully understand the gist of what your last post said.

Can you give an example of this ?

Thanks again,

TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

The event of Demmitt moving to Montreal doesn't preclude printing of cards with a St. Louis caption.


I think one significant aspect of the matter is the Demmitt Coupon card up there. When we look at T206 cards, we're usually looking at cards where the team in the caption matches with the team in the image. That isn't absolutely true, but generally. Sometimes they just removed and then added uniform lettering, but they tried to get it right. The two T206 Demmitt's show that, same image but the lettering on the jersey has changed to be consistent with the caption. That doesn't happen with T213's. When I was younger, nay when we all were younger (and some of you weren't even contemplated) Anheuser-Busch made Budweiser, but they also made Bush Baverian Beer, which was less expensive... they quit brewing it in 1979. I think Coupon was a second class brand. They didn't get first run cards. By the time they were getting cards some of the players had been traded, and this was reflected in the caption, if at all. Coupon cards retained the old images... Again, look at Demmitt with the last image used in T206, the St. Louis image, but with a Chicago Amer. caption.

I am somewhat in agreement with the time line. But the trade before is more significant than the trade after.


Another thought. The captions on T206's and on T213-1's are on there by way of lithography. Those blue captions on the later Coupon cards have always looked odd to me, they lack the sharpness of the previous captions. I wonder if those blue captions were done with offset printing. I envision someone filing on the stones to remove the captions, then the sheets are cranked out with lithography, then captions are added offset. I've not looked, but my belief is that T206 captions are consistently the same distance from the image frameline. I suspect that those blue T213 captions drift up and down slightly, if we were to look for it. If it does drift, that would be evident of that additional print run for captions. That all makes more sense to me that a reworking of the entire blue stones and plates just to fix a caption. And why blue? Because it was done separately.

[Abravefan11]

Frank - That's a great post and we share a lot of the same thoughts. I believe Coupon was a second class brand as well and didn't get first run cards.

There are a lot of players included in the T213-1 set that had been traded or out of baseball all together by the time the set was issued. Charlie Starr is an example as he was traded from Boston in July of 1909 to Philly and didn't play again in the majors after the 1909 season yet he is in the T206 350 series and the T213-1 set as a Boston player.

I would like a definitive time marker in the set beyond just a starting point if that is possible. It may be there and I'm just missing it, but without it we can only say they could have been printed as early as...but could have been printed anytime after.

[tedzan]

As I notated in my 1st post, here are some of the COUPON subjects whose status changed prior to the Spring of 1910

Subject.......................Status Change.....................................Printed T-brands (other than COUPON)

Becker..........traded from Boston NL to NY NL (April 1910).......................A-B-C-D

Byrne............traded from St Louis NL to Pittsburg (Aug 1909)..................none

Campbell......retired fro ML (Aug 1909)............................................. ...A-B-C

Charles........traded from St Louis NL to Cinci (Aug 1909).........................A-B-C-D

Dubuc...........re-assigned to Buffalo (Eastern Lge.) for 1910 season..........A-B-C

Joe Dunn.......retired from ML................................................ .............A-B

Huggins.........traded from Cinci to St Louis NL (Feb 1910)........................A-B-D

Marshall........retired from ML................................................ .............A-C-D

Mowrey.........traded from Cinci to St Louis NL (Aug 1909)........................A

Rhoades........retired from ML................................................ .............A-C-D

Rossman.......retired from ML................................................ ..............none

Starr..............re-assigned to Buffalo (Eastern Lge.) for 1910 season.........A-B-C-D


There may be a few more....if so, I will add them to this list.

KEY

A = American Beauty 350 (frame)
B = Broad Leaf 350
C = Cycle 350
D = Drum
ML = Major League


TED Z

[tedzan]

Both NY the versions and St Louis versions of the Demmitt and O'Hara cards are a strange lot, in that they were printed with very
few 350 series backs as compared to the majority population of the 350 series subjects.

Anyhow, it is quite evident in the white-bordered ATC cards (1912-1919), that images don't jive with the team changes. Your Dem-
mitt is just one of many. I can recall several T213 (-2 or -3) and T215's where this is so (Harry McIntyre immediately comes to mind
with a Brooklyn blue "B" on his uniform, although his caption is "Chicago, Nat'l" ).

American Litho. (ALC) was no longer modifying the artwork to be consistent with the team changes (as they did during 1909-1911).
Obviously, they were taking old pre-printed sheets they had in stock, and as you said, offset printed (in blue ink) the changes.

My guess is that after ATC's divestiture, ALC was not that keen on producing these cards (T213, T214, and T215) as they were dur-
ing the T206 production era.

They had other (or bigger) litho "fish to fry"


TED Z

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I haven't had my 2nd coffee yet this AM....but, I'm not sure I fully understand the gist of what your last post said.

Can you give an example of this ?


TED Z

Ted:

T206 was issued essentially from the end of summer 1909 through the late spring of 1911 and I'm just wondering if the ATC had periods where T206 were not the pack inserts but some other card was. Not sure I've seen anyone comment on that before.

I'm also curious about the T206 captions-they always seemed "machined" to me, much like the theory on the blue captions I guess, i.e. they look like they could have been added after the card images were printed. I believe the T206 theory on captions is they were part of the brown ink pass but if so, would not the blue captioned cards look strange if the brown pass was skipped in say T213-2? I guess I'm trying to reconcile the pre-printed fronts with out brown captions being used for the later sets.

I wonder if the post ATC breakup issues did not use unprinted front inventory from T206 but rather they used the elements used to create those cards instead but with the blue captions. Perhaps many of the T206 litho stones had been recycled for other uses and they just used what was still at hand for the Coupons, etc.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Ted:

T206 was issued essentially from the end of summer 1909 through the late spring of 1911 and I'm just wondering if the ATC had periods where T206 were not the pack inserts but some other card was. Not sure I've seen anyone comment on that before.

I'm also curious about the T206 captions-they always seemed "machined" to me, much like the theory on the blue captions I guess, i.e. they look like they could have been added after the card images were printed. I believe the T206 theory on captions is they were part of the brown ink pass but if so, would not the blue captioned cards look strange if the brown pass was skipped in say T213-2? I guess I'm trying to reconcile the pre-printed fronts with out brown captions being used for the later sets.

I wonder if the post ATC breakup issues did not use unprinted front inventory from T206 but rather they used the elements used to create those cards instead but with the blue captions. Perhaps many of the T206 litho stones had been recycled for other uses and they just used what was still at hand for the Coupons, etc.

OK, I hope I have answered your 1st paragraph here in post #16.

Regarding your 2nd paragraph..we have seen blank-back T206's. And, we have seen completely printed "nameless" T206's. Therefore, the
pre-printed fronts without brown captions sounds plausible for even the early production era of the T206's. Now the use of BLUE ink in the
post-1912 era could be because this color pass being the next to last in the printing stage ? ?


TED Z


TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

What about T80 Old Mills? Very hard to find. Any info in those records referring to Old Mill military backs?

Always thought it was interesting that T80 Lenox, Tolstoi and Uzit are relatively easy to find (especially compared to their baseball counterparts), but Old Mills are nearly impossible.


Rob

[tedzan]

If I recall correctly, no reference to the OLD MILL or the CAIRO MONOPOL T80's were in the ALC records.

But, my recollection could be wrong. I'll see if I can dig up that info.


TED Z

[toppcat]

Ted-missed #16 the last time around, looks like you answered my first question quite succinctly-thanks! Gotta think about the blue captions some more but your idea makes sense. I wonder if they no longer had access to whatever they needed for the brown captions in the production process?

[FrankWakefield]

First, I think brown captions on both T206s, T213-1s, and T215-1s are part of the regular printing process, when the frame is printed.

The font for the blue captions on the later T213s and T215s are of a different font. And the blue looks less intense, a bit washed out. Yet the artwork is the same as the successors. I do not think the blue captions were part of the regular blue process. I think the sheets went through a 'captions only' run. I've only been thinking this for a few days, I'd not contemplated it before Ted commenced this thread.

I think that 'adding' captions to the regular blue cycle would have been quite difficult. Removing the brown caption from the brown cycle not that difficult. So I think an extra printing pass for captions only would have been the most practicable way to deal with it.

So I envision a request being made for more cards, the expense discussed, then a fall back to just using the old images and reworking captions as a cost savings for these second quality cigarettes.

[tedzan]

150/350 series Southern Leaguers (16 cards)

Bay................Nashville Volunteers
Bernhard.........Nashville Volunteers
Breitenstein.....New Orleans Pelicans
Carey.............Memphis Turtles
Cranston.........Memphis Turtles
Ellam..............Nashville Volunteers
Fritz...............New Orleans Pelicans
Greminger........Montgomery Climbers
Hickman..........Mobile Sea Gulls
Jordan............Atlanta Crackers
Molesworth......Birmingham Barons
Perdue............Nashville Volunteers
Persons...........Montgomery Climbers
Reagan............New Orleans Pelicans
Smith..............Atlanta Crackers
Thornton.........Mobile Sea Gulls


350-ONLY series Southern Leaguers (4 cards)

Hart................Montgomery Climbers
Hart................Little Rock Travelers
Lentz..............Little Rock Travelers
Rockenfeld.......New Orleans Pelicans


Some interesting tid-bits here......

Ted Breitenstein, in his 1st official Major League start, pitched a No-Hitter on Oct 4th 1891 with St Louis (American Association).
It was a near perfect game, since he faced only 27 batters. He allowed one Walk, which was erased by a Pick-Off play.

Then, approx. 8 years later (Aug 15th 1909) with the Pelicans, Ted pitched another No-Hitter (vs Montgomery).

The following year, the New Orleans Pelicans win the 1910 Southern Association pennant. Shoeless Joe Jackson batted .354......
which greatly contributed to the Pelicans Championship year.






TED Z