Shanus-REA suit

Hankphenom · #1 04-06-2011, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Really? Lots of lawyers, doctors and financiers with felony convictions? Ever think that these individuals are often instantly barred from their professions if convicted of a felony?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to say "I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about?"

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

drc · #2 04-06-2011, 01:42 AM

If an MD loses his license for committing a felony that means he was committing a felony while a licensed MD.

calvindog · #3 04-06-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

byrone · #4 04-06-2011, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

Perhaps the SEC could regulate the hobby. They've done a bang-up job with their current mandate.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 04-06-2011, 06:56 AM

That's what we need, a trade association!! Oh wait, don't we have one already?

calvindog · #6 04-06-2011, 06:59 AM

Brian, yes, as soon as Madoff gets out of prison perhaps the SEC can take over Marshall Fogel's watchdog group. They've done such a bang-up job in the 8 months they've been protecting us from the bad guys in the industry. Is there any truth to the rumor that JP Cohen will take over the reins from Marshall in August?

mark evans · #7 04-06-2011, 08:01 AM

Back to O'Keeffe. No problem with having an honest and civil disagreement but I honestly don't see how anyone can reliably determine his motives. If I had to speculate, I should think they are more along the lines of selling papers and advancing his career than an animus toward the hobby [Whatever would be his reason?]. In any event, it makes no difference to me inasmuch as, in my view, he owes the hobby only truthful reporting.

In other words, I don't think any journalist has an obligation of "balanced" reporting. One is free to write of the more positive features of our hobby, and I should hope some would. I suspect, though, that such reporting sells fewer papers.

Bill Stone · #8 04-06-2011, 08:19 AM

All I know is I am anxiously awaiting the REA catalog on or about April 12.

mark evans · #9 04-06-2011, 09:16 AM

A final (?) thought on the trade association, as the subject seems to continue to crop up on the Board. I'm obviously "odd man out" in assuming there exists sufficient integrity among the majority of auction houses (and dealers) to make such an association beneficial to collectors.

I will confess to being biased as, given the right circumstances, I wouldn't mind being considered for a position in the hobby. [As this has not developed, I have instead turned to teaching, and now a group of unfortunate students in Alexandria, Va, must suffer through my course in legal writing.]

Having said that, I fail to see the downside to such an association, although I recognize that others might argue that it would offer a patina of legitimacy to a corrupt enterprise. "Everyone" agrees that law enforcement, at both the federal and state level, has insufficient resources to police the hobby effectively. Just look at how long it's taking the FBI to conduct the Mastro investigation. And, civil litigation is too costly and cumbersome except to resolve high-dollar disputes.

While a system of self-policing would no doubt be imperfect, it seems to me that if it comprises honest people invested with sufficient authority, and if the costs are borne by the industry and not passed on to collectors, then collectors stand nothing to lose by offering their support.

Hankphenom · #10 04-06-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

I sure wish I was so smart that I could claim a certainty without being able to cite actual facts. Tell me exactly how many hobby figures you know to have criminal records, then? Not under investigation or suspicion, but actual convictions? And just to bring it back to my original point, I was only trying to say that there's an enormous amount of hobby activity transacted honestly every day online, at shows, in auctions, between individuals, etc., and that, in relation to all of that, the extent of illegal and unethical behavior is actually quite small, just as it is in the other fields mentioned for all the justified publicity the dark side gets. As for your self-declared brain power, at least I'm smart enough not to resort to childish name-calling that would expose me as a jerk. And thanks for the props, Joe, it's people like you and so many other classy individuals I know in the hobby that prompted me to defend its reputation.
Hank Thomas

bijoem · #11 04-06-2011, 12:33 PM

Hank -

I should also say - I very much enjoy breaking bread and talking hobby talk with Jeff and I consider him a good friend.

I see both of your point of views - and I think much of it is a matter of individual perspective.

As heated as the exchanges you and Jeff are having (or it seems heated anyway), I actually read through it and think that you are not fundamentally disagreeing / just looking at things from different experiences.

I am looking forward to better weather, more card shows, and more enjoyment of this hobby.

And, as was said earlier in this thread - I am looking forward to receiving the REA catalog.

HercDriver · #12 04-06-2011, 01:02 PM

I just hope my catalog gets here before the government shuts down on Friday...I'd hate to think one of the year's big highlights is stuck in a mail truck in a parking lot somewhere...

Take Care,
Geno

novakjr · #13 04-06-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I just hope my catalog gets here before the government shuts down on Friday...I'd hate to think one of the year's big highlights is stuck in a mail truck in a parking lot somewhere...

Take Care,
Geno

I'm pretty sure that the mail won't be effected.

RichardSimon · #14 04-06-2011, 01:57 PM

The post office is a corporation and will not be affected by a govt shutdown.

mark evans · #15 04-06-2011, 02:02 PM

Obviously, there are no guarantees Peter.

I tend to share Hank's view that the vast majority of people in the hobby, including auction houses, conduct themselves in an ethical manner. To the best of my knowledge, these auction houses, with the notable exception of Mastro, have continued in business for significant periods of time because they continue to be patronized. And, their patrons are, by and large, savvy collectors and dealers who I should think would not risk substantial sums of money if they perceived a significant likelihood of being defrauded.

But, all that aside, my primary point is that, so long as collectors are not funding the trade association (directly or indirectly), they stand nothing to lose by offering support and letting the chips fall where they may.

drc · #16 04-06-2011, 02:09 PM

Duly note I wasn't really suggesting that there are major felony problems within the medical, legal and accounting systems-- I assume there aren't. I was just making a technical point. Clearly the legal and medical fields have good self-policing systems that the baseball card hobby does not. Though I assume the legal and medical fields policing systems are in part defined by outside laws.

calvindog · #17 04-06-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I sure wish I was so smart that I could claim a certainty without being able to cite actual facts. Tell me exactly how many hobby figures you know to have criminal records, then? Not under investigation or suspicion, but actual convictions? And just to bring it back to my original point, I was only trying to say that there's an enormous amount of hobby activity transacted honestly every day online, at shows, in auctions, between individuals, etc., and that, in relation to all of that, the extent of illegal and unethical behavior is actually quite small, just as it is in the other fields mentioned for all the justified publicity the dark side gets. As for your self-declared brain power, at least I'm smart enough not to resort to childish name-calling that would expose me as a jerk. And thanks for the props, Joe, it's people like you and so many other classy individuals I know in the hobby that prompted me to defend its reputation.
Hank Thomas

Hank, you want me to cite facts about how many hobby figures have actual criminal convictions? That's a laugh, try reading the board it's all there. And why not open your eyes a bit to the reality in this hobby? But then again you're probably one of the guys who thinks that Doug Allen and Bill Mastro are good guys because they send out free catalogs.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but to be honest -- I'm not really sorry. You can choose to fantasize about the tiny bit of fraud which exists in the hobby and I'll keep warning people about the fraud I see which is pervasive. I'm willing to bet, however, that only one of us has real knowledge of the widespread nature of the fraud in the hobby from shill bidding to card alterations--and it is not you.

TexasLeaguer · #18 04-06-2011, 04:44 PM

...

base_ball · #19 04-06-2011, 05:00 PM

I've put a link to a pdf of the document below. I'm going to try and get my copy autographed by Nash, Lifson, and Henry Chadwick.

http://bit.ly/gLFStq

Also important is that this lawsuit raises the issue of "shill bidding" we've been hearing about for years. If it plays out the discovery would be fabulous.

DanP · #20 04-06-2011, 05:38 PM

Wow.. I read every word in the 18 pages. This is going to be interesting. Thanks for posting it.

Dan

Hankphenom · #21 04-06-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, you want me to cite facts about how many hobby figures have actual criminal convictions? That's a laugh, try reading the board it's all there. And why not open your eyes a bit to the reality in this hobby? But then again you're probably one of the guys who thinks that Doug Allen and Bill Mastro are good guys because they send out free catalogs.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but to be honest -- I'm not really sorry. You can choose to fantasize about the tiny bit of fraud which exists in the hobby and I'll keep warning people about the fraud I see which is pervasive. I'm willing to bet, however, that only one of us has real knowledge of the widespread nature of the fraud in the hobby from shill bidding to card alterations--and it is not you.

Yes, Jeff, you're smarter than everybody else, and you're the only one with the "real knowledge," and you don't mind insulting people because you're so tough, and so on and so on. You win. Feel better now? Of course there's fraud in the hobby, and as an honest dealer I've always applauded every effort to expose it and stop it, including by Mike O'Keeffe, who is a friend of mine. I jumped into this originally only to dispute the assertion that "the hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters," a characterization I know to be false. By the way, Jeff, I'll be set up at tables 509-513 at the upcoming Oaks show and with Kevin Keating at the National if you think you're tough enough to show up and insult me to my face.
Hank Thomas

calvindog · #22 04-06-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Yes, Jeff, you're smarter than everybody else, and you're the only one with the "real knowledge," and you don't mind insulting people because you're so tough, and so on and so on. You win. Feel better now? Of course there's fraud in the hobby, and as an honest dealer I've always applauded every effort to expose it and stop it, including by Mike O'Keeffe, who is a friend of mine. I jumped into this originally only to dispute the assertion that "the hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters," a characterization I know to be false. By the way, Jeff, I'll be set up at tables 509-513 at the upcoming Oaks show and with Kevin Keating at the National if you think you're tough enough to show up and insult me to my face.
Hank Thomas

Hank, stop whining. And you're challenging me to a fight? Are you 12? Seriously? Why don't you take a pill and calm down.

And you challenged my assertion that there is a higher percentage of criminals in this hobby than in the fields of law, medicine, finance and the clergy. You were wrong when you said it and you're wrong now -- and that won't change no matter how hard you stamp your feet in frustration.

Hankphenom · #23 04-06-2011, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, stop whining. And you're challenging me to a fight? Are you 12? Seriously? Why don't you take a pill and calm down.

And you challenged my assertion that there is a higher percentage of criminals in this hobby than in the fields of law, medicine, finance and the clergy. You were wrong when you said it and you're wrong now -- and that won't change no matter how hard you stamp your feet in frustration.

...and you're always going to be right, right or wrong. What a jerk.

Joe Hunter · #24 04-06-2011, 08:22 PM

I have been involved in the hobby for about 30 years and still enjoy it. However, I have found it to be a virtual "Wild West" where just about anything goes and one must constantly be on his toes from a knowledge perspective. Otherwise, you will get burned, eventually. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a lot of, if not out-and-out unethical, at least questionable practices exist in the hobby. I am in agreement with Calvindog that percentage-wise, these practices are much more prevalent in the sportscard/memorabilia business than in any of the professions mentioned. I don't have statistics; this has just been by observation and experience over the years. Of course, there is going to be unethical behavior in all professions. We are dealing with human beings, afterall. I enjoy and participate in the hobby, but I do so with my eyes open.

bijoem · #25 04-06-2011, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

I just wanted to stick my nose into this conversation to say.....

Hank is one of the nicest guys I have met in this hobby - and I (like everyone else should) look forward to stopping by his table whenever he is at a show. Not knowing Hank's circle of friends in the hobby..... I could only guess that he already knows who can be avoided and has surrounded himself with other nice, intelligent, and honorable hobby participants.

I would also love to come up with some sort of lawyer-joke-zinger to throw into this thread...... but I fear a Taddy retort would put me (understandably) on the losing side of the exchange.

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