Shanus-REA suit

[CMIZ5290]

Hank- have to agree with jeff. This business from a percentage standpoint has been extremely tarnished with bad apples in the barrel. While there are other issues with our political and criminal agendas, i do believe it pales to the other, thanks

[drc]

I'll take the lunch money. I can probably get two lunches out of it here in Seattle.

[ls7plus]

Oh, Man! Two very good, very knowledgable hobby guys--can't we just agree to disagree? You should have seen the three-judge panel I had on a Michigan Court of Appeals case yesterday! Now there was some real cause to get feisty (I don't usually have to be cautioned about pounding the podium for emphasis in the course of oral argument, and reminded I wasn't giving closing argument to the jury)!!!

As Adam would say, it's just cardboard, dammit!

Larry

[Kenny Cole]

Wow, you actually get to have oral argument in state court appeals? I think the last time I did that was about 20 years ago. I go argue writs (in front of a referee) out at the state Supreme Court fairly frequently, but they practically never hear oral argument in actual appeals. My partners and I get to go visit with the esteemed jurists in the 10th Circuit occasionally (not by choice), but that never happens in state court. I remain conflicted about whether or not that's a good thing.

[egbeachley]

It seems to me about 1/3 to 1/2 of the auction houses have had "problems". Way, way higher than the other professions.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

It seems to me about 1/3 to 1/2 of the auction houses have had "problems". Way, way higher than the other professions.

What I'd like to see is how many of these auction house honchos would be willing to take polygraph tests to assure the collecting community that they've never engaged in shill bidding, card doctoring (actively themselves or knowingly through a third party), allowing items of questionable authenticity to be embellish as the "real deal", consigning their own items without disclosure, and the list goes on.

As I recall, recently one auction house boss was already given that challenge on this board to deny just one of those issues on a polygraph and best my knowledge never accepted that offer to "clear the air".

[pwilk17]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

What I'd like to see is how many of these auction house honchos would be willing to take polygraph tests to assure the collecting community that they've never engaged in shill bidding, card doctoring (actively themselves or knowingly through a third party), allowing items of questionable authenticity to be embellish as the "real deal", consigning their own items without disclosure, and the list goes on.

As I recall, recently one auction house boss was already given that challenge on this board to deny just one of those issues on a polygraph and best my knowledge never accepted that offer to "clear the air".

I would also like to see the owners and managers of third party authentication companies take these polygraph tests as well. It would be nice to find out who the true good guys are.

[calvindog]

I'd also like to see certain posters on this board take IQ tests.

[steve B]

I would have to believe that there are few auction houses where shilling hasn't happened, and those few would be new ones. But there are probably only a few that have done the shilling themselves. In theory I could consign anywhere, and have a friend bid on my items. Pretty hard to prove, and harder to stop.

I also have to believe that every auction that's been around long enough has handled an item or two that is either fake, altered, or stolen. Stolen stuff because the item isn't widely known as stolen. Altered stuff - Maybe the alteration was done well enough to pass inspection at one time, but newer technology has made it possible to detect the alteration. And some fake stuff can be well done enough to get past many experts. Nobody can catch 100% of the questionable items unless they have access to a lot of lab gear and time. And even then some stuff would slip through.

The need for third party graders to not buy or sell cards is a tough one. Yes, it's a conflict. But I wouldn't expect someone with no knowledge or interest in cards to be able to authenticate them. Stamps are authenticated by experts in a particular issue. All of them collect, and buying and selling are a part of that.

Steve Birmingham

[Bill Stone]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Oh, Man! Two very good, very knowledgable hobby guys--can't we just agree to disagree? You should have seen the three-judge panel I had on a Michigan Court of Appeals case yesterday! Now there was some real cause to get feisty (I don't usually have to be cautioned about pounding the podium for emphasis in the course of oral argument, and reminded I wasn't giving closing argument to the jury)!!!

As Adam would say, it's just cardboard, dammit!

Larry

Larry --this reminded me of trying a case out in a country courthouse when the judge called us to the bench. I leaned on the bench and the judge said " don't lean on my bench " then he turned to my opposing counsel, a local, and said " I learned that from your daddy !" I went to the hallway and settled the case.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Hank- have to agree with jeff. This business from a percentage standpoint has been extremely tarnished with bad apples in the barrel. While there are other issues with our political and criminal agendas, i do believe it pales to the other, thanks

Many bad apples in the barrel, Kevin, so stipulated. But after watching the documentary "Inside Job" recently, I'm having a hard time seeing lawyers, financiers, economists, politicians, etc., and other professions in a very good light these days, either. At least our bad apples won't take the world down with them!
And I'm not a pollyanna type, I can be as cynical as the next guy. But I'll be doing the Oaks show next week with 300+ dealers and if there's going to be crooks there, I wish someone would tell me who they are, because after 15 years of doing shows, I don't think I could name any. And half the auction houses are crooked? Really? I'd sure appreciate knowing which ones, so we can all stop doing business with them. When I requested some evidence and some names, all I got was insulted for being so dumb as to ask. I'll match wits with anybody on this board, but what I can't understand is why all of us smart and educated people are still involved in this cesspool of illegal and unethical behavior? My business has actually held up very well during these lousy last couple of years. And in general, I just don't see the business folding its tent anytime soon.
Why is that? Are our customers so stupid or ill-informed that they don't know or don't care about the serial scandals that have been rocking the hobby for years? No, I'd guess it's because they know that in spite of all that, the great preponderance of dealers and yes, even auctions houses, go about their business earnestly and honestly and are not trying to steal their money. Bad apples? Plenty. Conflicts of interest? Sure. Rip-offs? You bet. Let's all work and campaign tirelessly to get them out of our hobby and into jail, if warranted. But let's not blow it all out of proportion. There's still a lot more good than bad, I'll say it again, and I just thought the good needed to be spoken for.
Hank Thomas

[calvindog]

Ryan -- I disagree on your conclusion on relative legal culpabilities but I applaud your sentiment. Kudos to you, you are to be admired for taking your stance.

Hank -- just because you have lots of great deals with people at shows for relatively minor dollars does not mean that the industry is mostly clean. It's not. There are millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in this hobby. Just because they don't advertise their fraud in neon lights doesn't mean it's not so. Maybe there will be a documentary about it someday and then you'll believe it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Ryan -- I disagree on your conclusion on relative legal culpabilities but I applaud your sentiment. Kudos to you, you are to be admired for taking your stance.

Hank -- just because you have lots of great deals with people at shows for relatively minor dollars does not mean that the industry is mostly clean. It's not. There are millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in this hobby. Just because they don't advertise their fraud in neon lights doesn't mean it's not so. Maybe there will be a documentary about it someday and then you'll believe it.

I'm going to take your word for it, Jeff, that there are "millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in the hobby." So stipulated. And I'm going to assume that you know a lot of things that haven't come to light yet, since as far as I know, even the Mastro /Legendary activities have only been investigated to this point. No indictments yet, right? And you are certainly correct that I've never been involved with auction houses for big money on the buying end, only selling, so maybe I've actually, and unwittingly, been the beneficiary of some of this.
So why are you big money guys still doing it? I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the sleazy morass you describe. And are any of the auction houses clean? Would you advise a total boycott of auctions? If not, how are the less well-informed going to proceed if you don't tell us who we can trust and who we can't?
I really do need the documentary because I live in another world altogether. And I still say, and maybe you will so stipulate, that if you take the dollar volume of all the honest dealings in the hobby (I'm talking web sites, eBay, shows, stores, private deals, honest auctions if there are any, etc.) it vastly outweighs the dollar volume of the scamming. What do you suppose the amount of sports memorabilia business on eBay is every day? Has to be in the millions, doesn't it? So maybe that volume equals the total of auction house fraud in a year? Does this bring our positions any closer together, then? Hopefully, at least the dialogue has improved, and that's progress.
Hank

[uniship]

I sort of agree with both Hankphenom and Calvindog at the same time. On one hand I truly believe there are hundreds of good, honest hard working dealers out there. On the other hand, it's impossible to dispute that there are some well-known bad apples that have a lot of influence in our hobby.

[ElCabron]

Jeff,

I didn't mean to imply there was actual legal culpability. I just meant they're partially responsible. A tiny percentage responsible. Still, a tiny percentage is more than the 0% it would become by not bidding with or consigning to shady auction houses. Some of the individuals discussed in this thread do actually have very real legal culpability, but that's not who I was talking about when I mention culpability. I try to leave the legal discussions to the experts, which there are many of on this board. Or maybe a better way to put it is that I try to leave those discussions to the guys who went to law school.

-Ryan

[Orioles1954]

Is shill bidding relegated to only "house owned" lots? As a consignor, would you "turn the other cheek" if you figured a house was shilling in your favor?

[calvindog]

James -- I mean Captain Obvious -- why do you think there is so much love still on this board for certain auction houses which are obviously crooked? Why do you think I took such a beating 5 years ago for proclaiming that Mastro was crooked?