Chris Morales appears in court for an autograph case, read about the results.

[Big Dave]

A lot of auction houses list the authenticator for an item and state that if you are not "comfortable with the authentication or authenticator", then do not bid as there are no returns.

Very few auction houses will accept a return, regardless. It is a buyer beware market, and do your homework. That is why most of them will not accept credit cards, because if they do, the buyer has a recourse if they don't like the item for whatever reason.

Even if you go to live auctions where memorabilia or anything is being sold, the items are sold "as is, where is" regardless of any COAs.

There are always going to be differences of opinion on the authenticity of an item, even the so called experts disagree on many items.

I seriously doubt this industry or authenticators will ever be regulated.

The only regulation there is, is via the money in your pocket.

Originally Posted by Big Dave

A lot of auction houses list the authenticator for an item and state that if you are not "comfortable with the authentication or authenticator", then do not bid as there are no returns.

Very few auction houses will accept a return, regardless. It is a buyer beware market, and do your homework. That is why most of them will not accept credit cards, because if they do, the buyer has a recourse if they don't like the item for whatever reason.

Even if you go to live auctions where memorabilia or anything is being sold, the items are sold "as is, where is" regardless of any COAs.

There are always going to be differences of opinion on the authenticity of an item, even the so called experts disagree on many items.

I seriously doubt this industry or authenticators will ever be regulated.

The only regulation there is, is via the money in your pocket.

Doesn't the original post in this thread, however, show that it's possible to sue auction houses successfully for selling forgeries? Might there then be a way, via multiple, similar suits against one auction house, or via one monster suit encompassing a whole pile of forgeries, to show a pattern that ultimately compels the house to divulge the consignors/forgers?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Doesn't the original post in this thread, however, show that it's possible to sue auction houses successfully for selling forgeries? Might there then be a way, via multiple, similar suits against one auction house, or via one monster suit encompassing a whole pile of forgeries, to show a pattern that ultimately compels the house to divulge the consignors/forgers?

Actually, Karl, the original lawsuit was against AutographCentral (Bryan Slaven). AutographCentral isn't an auction house.

Bryan Slaven paid Chris Morales as an expert witness. In the end Bryan Slaven issued Mr. Lovert Bassett a full refund and paid Morales a hefty amount to testify on behalf of AutographCentral. That didn't work out too well.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Actually, Karl, the original lawsuit was against AutographCentral (Bryan Slaven). AutographCentral isn't an auction house.

Bryan Slaven paid Chris Morales as an expert witness. In the end Bryan Slaven issued Mr. Lovert Bassett a full refund and paid Morales a hefty amount to testify on behalf of AutographCentral. That didn't work out too well.

Okay, but my point was that you apparently can successfully sue another party for selling you a forged autograph if you can reasonably prove it's a fake - and I'm guessing it wouldn't matter if the other party advised up front that you buy their autos at your own risk.

So what might happen if an individual or group buys 200 diverse autos from an outfit like Coach's Corner, sues them, refuses a refund but instead seeks some kind of damages, and proves 200 of 200 are fake. Might that open the door to further investigation of the company and its consignors? I'm assuming that once the consignors are divulged, and it turns out there are just 3 or 4 guys providing hundreds of fakes auction after auction, that it might mean game over?

[danc]

The new CCSA is up and running already...Morales has authenticated...1919 Black Sox ball, Davy Crockett, Pretty Boy Floyd, Clyde Barrow, Bonnie Parker, Elliot Ness, 1894 sheet with Anson, Bugsy Siegel, Babyface Nelson, 1925 Giants bat with Mathewson, Babe Ruth signed hat, Beatles signed ball, Josh Gibson ball, 1939 Hall Of Fame Induction ball...

89 items in total.

DanC

[mr2686]

you just have to love fake 1919 Blacksox baseballs that look like they were signed yesterday, and that have a nicely penned Joe Jackson on them.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by danc

The new CCSA is up and running already...Morales has authenticated...1919 Black Sox ball, Davy Crockett, Pretty Boy Floyd, Clyde Barrow, Bonnie Parker, Elliot Ness, 1894 sheet with Anson, Bugsy Siegel, Babyface Nelson, 1925 Giants bat with Mathewson, Babe Ruth signed hat, Beatles signed ball, Josh Gibson ball, 1939 Hall Of Fame Induction ball...

89 items in total.

DanC

The total number of signatures is 319. According to Mr. Bassett's email, Mr. Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator, testified that he spends 2-3 hours examining each signature at $75.00 per item. 89 items at $75.00 a pop equals $6.675.00. He examined 319 signatures at a minimum of 2 hours per signature totals 638 hours "forensically examining" those 89 items. That breaks down to $10.46 per hour. Let's say that Mr. Morales only spent one hour examining each signature. That breaks down to $20.92 per hour.

If any of my numbers here are incorrect, Mr. Morales, please feel free to correct me.

[tinkereversandme]

The problem is that these people involved have gotten away with as long as they have, that they think they will get away with it forever. Just look at some of this s--t? Who is the person supplying them with this Gangster stuff? Wow! Another Bonnie and Clyde? Didn't they get lambasted the first time by a Bonnie And Clyde expert who called them out on their site and now another? This is just brazen, mocking us all...

I talked to a Federal Prosecutor...and isn't there a plot to deceive? A facilitator (or an entity) that exists to defraud?

It's like they strive to place the same holy objects every single month in their auctions and will they the authenticators or the consignors ever be shocked if there is a bust. How can they be, or has the mind set been put in place that they believe nothing will ever bring them down? Let's just all hope, then celebrate.

Regards,

Larry

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The total number of signatures is 319. According to Mr. Bassett's email, Mr. Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator, testified that he spends 2-3 hours examining each signature at $75.00 per item. 89 items at $75.00 a pop equals $6.675.00. He examined 319 signatures at a minimum of 2 hours per signature totals 638 hours "forensically examining" those 89 items. That breaks down to $10.46 per hour. Let's say that Mr. Morales only spent one hour examining each signature. That breaks down to $20.92 per hour.

If any of my numbers here are incorrect, Mr. Morales, please feel free to correct me.

Some more interesting math.

638 hours is roughly 26 1/2 full days. Or if we go on a 10 hour workday, 63.8 days. If it's a typical month for him he must be spending much less than even 1 hour on each one.

Steve B