My impromptu chat with Joe O.

[glchen]

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed. Old time collectors know how to handle cards without damaging them. Newer collectors are worried that the card they bought instead of a big screen TV will depreciate to 0 value if their toddler gets a hold of it. It's always been a topic on how card collecting may be dying as a hobby because newer collectors aren't as interested in it. However, I firmly believe that TPG's like PSA do bring the newer collectors back into the hobby. They give collectors a comfort that they're not getting scammed or throwing their money away. And for PSA, even though their registry is often held in derision here, it allows more entertainment for some collectors to be able to see and organize all of their cards in the registry and compete with others on it. I've never talked or corresponded with Joe Orlando, but I believe he's trying to promote the interest of the hobby as best as he can. Obviously, he's not perfect, but very few of us are.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by glchen

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed.

I bolded the part that is such a big positive that grading provides.
And btw, all the things that people are saying here about cards have been said by old time collectors about comics.
The grading companies level the playing field and help to provide a comfort level that allows the less savy and knowledgeable collectors to feel confident that the card they are purchasing is what it is advertised as.
Im new to collecting vintage cards and without SGC and other grading companies I very seriously doubt I would buy a Mickey Mantle or other higher dollar card with my level of hobby knowledge at the moment. It was much the same way when I started collecting comics. As I learned and became much more savvy in the comics hobby I didnt need to rely on CGC nearly as much. One day I believe the same will happen as I learn more about cards. Are there drawbacks to pro graders? Sure, card prices for HG cards have increased (not because dealers are scared to loose money on a flip) but because the market has changed for HG cards. Or low pop cards as well. Why would a dealer let money leave the table just because the dynamic has changed? Not a good business practice. That makes old timers complain. Did it in comics, did it in cards, and I would assume in coins or whatever. But think about the positives:
1-Much more accurate and consistent grading of cards. Protects the buyer from spending NM money on a Mantle that actually grades EX. Let a new collector get burnt once or twice like that and there is a good chance they dont keep collecting
2-Bringing in more collectors to the hobby. That is never a bad thing. The confidence that grading brings to people making purchases is not to be underestimated.
3-Cutting down on altered cards-That card you dropped $500 on? Yeah, sorry, its got color and a trimmed edge. That tobacco card you spent $40. Sorry, its been trimmed. To me that is such a huge positive that it outweighs the negatives. If i buy a card lets say raw, and have it graded and comes back as recolored, i know have recourse. First, I know that it is something that it is not. Then I can go back to the dealer and discuss terms with them. A good dealer will make it right. Without that I either get burned buying it, keeping it in my collection (because i didnt want an altered card) and if Im lucky I get burned again when I go to sell. Because someone else had the hobby experience to recognize what I couldnt.

Some people will say "well dont buy something if you dont know what you are looking for" That really translates into "i got burned when I started and now i know a lot about the hobby, you should have to learn the hard way just like I did" and by the way "got off my damn lawn ya rotten stinkin' kid"

I really enjoy collecting cards and graded cards provides me with the confidence to buy cards I otherwise wouldnt. And if a hobby wants to continue and be relevant, then it needs people coming into the hobby. Grading has done that.

[Misunderestimated]

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

Yes, and it is a catch-22. However, as the stories and the art are what drives most collectors there are trades, reprints, etc that allow one to read and enjoy the story and art without having to open the case.

[glchen]

One thing brought up in this thread and others that I find interesting yet debateable is the idea of "freeing a card from its plastic prison." It's another part of the raw vs slabbed debate, yet it's similar to the Toy Story idea where inanimate objects have feelings. I can understand this. There have been more than one instance in the dark of the night where I've been caught talking to my cards as if they're dear friends. And again, it is the owner's prerogative to do whatever he sees fit with his cards, whether it is to put them in an album or a bike spoke or a dart board. I know the feeling of opening a gum pack and touching my cards. You can feel the texture of cards in your hand. It's nice. You can sort and organize how you want. I've handled my pre-war cards also, and it's a different feeling. They are seldom the high grade of modern cards. When you do hold an excellent or near mint pre-war card raw, it's a feeling of awe as you wonder how it could have survived in this condition for so long.

However the phrase "freeing a card from its plastic prison" speaks more of the card's feelings than the owner's. I can see some parts of the argument where I think card owners can believe this. It's an airtight seal in the slab, and the cards cannot breathe. You can easily imagine a live card suffocating inside there. It is an unnatural environment where cards were not meant to be when first issued. Cards were meant to be played with, traded, and enjoyed. Cards may want to be right next to another card, raw to raw, similar to the skin to skin recommendations when caring for newborns.

However, I still don't know if that's what cards really want. It's back to the Toy Story argument where cards are similar to toys, and they want to exist for as long as possible, to be enjoyed their owners as much as possible. And cards may even have a selfish side where they want to exist in their current condition as long as possible. Cards do not want to be thrown away. They don't want to be tossed in the trash accidentally or on purpose. However, if you slab a card, there's much less chance that it will get tossed. Most collectors scoff when a 10 cent card is put into a $5 slab. That is an incredible waste of value, and they are right. However, what do the cards think? Are they proud that they are now in a nice safe slab? If they are in an SGC slab, better to show off their best attributes. If they are in a Beckett slab, this new home is bulletproof! For PSA, they can brag that they're now worth a little more in this slab than the others. I've holdered many a hideous raw card that had no right be slabbed. In a way, I felt like I was saving that card. Now that it was slabbed, it would be appreciated a lot more than when it were raw. It may have writing, holes, horrible creases, but now it had its own shiny slab to show off in. I think it knew it didn't deserve to be there, but it was glad it was. Now there would be more chance people would look at it and enjoy and less than it would be thrown away. For higher grade cards, I think the feeling is the similar. They want to keep their sharp corners, their uncreased surface. They've already survived a hundred odd years like this, and they want another hundred. An inside a slab, they are much more likely to keep their condition.

A card inside a slab can be enjoyed almost as much as a raw one. The only difference being you cannot feel the card. However, it only has two sides, so you can look and enjoy it just as much. I think that slabbing cards and coins would be similar in these respects. However, I do see more of an argument for comics. You can easily say that comics are meant to be read. And that comics want to be read. Inside a slab, you can only see the front and back cover; you can't read it. Therefore, I think there is more of an argument for freeing comics from their slab prison than for cards.

I recently purchased a W519-1 Ruth card with a blue background to go with my maroon and red/pink backgrounds. When the seller sold the card to me, he said he was glad it was going to a good home with my other Ruth's. It was slabbed, but regardless, I think it was happy also to go from one good place where it was appreciated to another, and where it could exchange its own war stories with the other cards.

[sreader3]

Good post Leon. Whenever I have emailed Joe Orlando with a concern about PSA authentication and/or grading, he has responded promptly and cordially. That's not to say that every issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, but at least a considered reply was given.

As for those who complain that Joe Orlando is all about protecting PSA's interests, I don't think that is really a valid criticism. Corporate officers have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of their company and shareholders.

PSA has its problems to be sure. PSA personnel make too many authentication, grading and labeling errors. But the company is hardly the evil empire it is sometimes made out to be, and Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.[/QUOTE]

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

[A2000]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by A2000

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

Especially books that have amateur work done.

[vargha]

I am not a raw card Luddite. I think TPG has been a huge boon to the hobby. That and the Internet have expanded it exponentially.

I do think Joe Orlando is a lying sack of crap. Hey Joe, I'm still waiting for the full story on WIWAG that you promised once the court action was over. I'm also still waiting for your response to the charge from a former head grader that PSA left two pallets of unsealed slabs in the parking lot at one time because there wasn't sufficient room in the old office at the time.

Bottom-line, Joe Orlando is a self-serving, lying weasel who holds his position because of those "qualities" rather than in spite of them.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave[/QUOTE]
Comics do use mint terms:
VF/NM very fine/near mint 9.0
NM- Near mint minus 9.2
NM-Near Mint 9.4
NM+ Near Mint Plus 9.6
NM/MT 9.8
MT 9.9
CGC at one time used both the number and alpha grade on their slabs. It has only been recently that they have stopped. By recently I mean in the last several years.
And inside the hobby, the alpha and numeric are interchangeable.
And depends on the person and age of the book depends on whether restoration is accepted. But that is a whole can of worms lol