Sir shill is at it again

[JustinD]

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair.

I think it's completely fair. The point is, if you are out of your element, don't spend like you know what you're doing. This isn't the cleanest hobby, and technology will allow it to get even dirtier.

I had a friend who thought he got a super-fantastic deal on a diamond ring for his fiancé. When he went to get it appraised ten years later, he found out it was cubic zirconium. He could have bought from a legit dealer, but he learned the hard way.

[smtjoy]

I like and own a couple Helmar and I to would purchase them over todays modern.

The one issue I do have with their listings on ebay is I do not think they should be able to list in the Pre WW2 Era section, that also goes for all the modern that gets listed their too. I wish ebay or we could do something about that.

[steve B]

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

They have another series of cards that's actually inserted into the chip or caramel corn bags too.

So, Legit brewery. legit snack food brand. Issuer of a more traditional card series.......Figure those are legit too, unless you discount stuff like 1960+61 Fleer, 72 rold gold, Shakeys Pizza, 63 Bazooka all time greats.....

The prices of the ebay stuff seem high, higherthan I'd pay for most. But they are limited edition art items. What will happen with prices in the future is a guess, the sold out stuff has settled at more realistic prices, and they're no worse than any of the stuff I've seen over the last 30 years that was supposed to be "good" - And probably better than most.

Steve B

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by steve B

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

Interesting...I really thought Helmar was something I could just go down to the liquor store and buy. So apparently this IS just some guy making these things out of his basement.

And Frankenmuth is where one of my best friends grew up...I went back there with him a few years back..it's a really neat little town.

edited to add: So this guy is advertising his beer along with his "art" cards...Can we presume that he is paying the licensing fees to the proper estates of Babe Ruth, et cetera?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Interesting...I really thought Helmar was something I could just go down to the liquor store and buy. So apparently this IS just some guy making these things out of his basement.

Well after visiting the headquarters...maybe a spare bedroom?

I think if he draws much more attention, the licensing will really come into play. I had not even thought of that.

[steve B]

Ah, now things come together! I didn't know the contest was that small. There's probably too many beer awards these days.

The fine print on the label says Michigan Brewing Co, so private label but using Helmars recepie. They're currently doing a vanity brand for Kid Rock, so it looks like that's part of their business. (Fad beers like Billy beer, JR beer, M.A.S.H beer were all brewed by various brewers, so it's nothing new)

I guess the question is how big a business has to be to be "real"? If you have actual product -even a vanity brand with extremely limited distribution and a home office to run it from is that not a real business?

Even making leeway for card sets done while the players were current leaves a ton of collectors sets in the Gimick grab for cash category. And sets with a deliberately short printed card? Pretty much the same thing to me.

so 33 goudey, George C Miller, US Caramel.....Gimicks?

Helmar gets denounced for using R319 , but Topps gets a pass on allen and ginter and T206, Tristar gets a pass on Obak, UD? gets a pass on Goudey or diamond stars or whatever name they used....

Is a gimick ok from a big company but not a tiny one?

Steve B

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ah, now things come together! I didn't know the contest was that small. There's probably too many beer awards these days.

The fine print on the label says Michigan Brewing Co, so private label but using Helmars recepie. They're currently doing a vanity brand for Kid Rock, so it looks like that's part of their business. (Fad beers like Billy beer, JR beer, M.A.S.H beer were all brewed by various brewers, so it's nothing new)

I guess the question is how big a business has to be to be "real"? If you have actual product -even a vanity brand with extremely limited distribution and a home office to run it from is that not a real business?

Even making leeway for card sets done while the players were current leaves a ton of collectors sets in the Gimick grab for cash category. And sets with a deliberately short printed card? Pretty much the same thing to me.

so 33 goudey, George C Miller, US Caramel.....Gimicks?

Helmar gets denounced for using R319 , but Topps gets a pass on allen and ginter and T206, Tristar gets a pass on Obak, UD? gets a pass on Goudey or diamond stars or whatever name they used....

Is a gimick ok from a big company but not a tiny one?

Steve B

I don't like Topps 206 or any of the other companies using existing names..mainly because it's made ebay much harder to search for vintage cards...But I bet all of those companies are paying licensing fees to use the images of former players...I'd sure like to know if Helmar is doing so.

Until this thread I seriously though Helmar was some big brand name only because of these cards, and I think that's what Helmar wants us to think.

[JustinD]

Well personally, I don't see any corelation to Topps T206 or Tristar. I don't think even the biggest of morons would think those were a vintage issue as they have modern players placed in a vintage look on glossy stock and are not individually doctored to look old. Plus, even on a legal front, I would bet those names were legally used and the vintage player's estates properly licenced. Most importantly, I can pick up each of those issues and flip them over to find a date. There is no attempt made to deceive. While I might not want a Justin Verlander T206, I know no one is going to drop 300 on it as a vintage piece. What Helmar is doing here is manufacturing unmarked vintage pieces meant to deceive the eye, it's not close to the same thing. Like I have said, if these pieces are not meant to deceive than properly date them all, then I have no problem at all. I don't think the millions or so Fritsch reprints fooled anyone. They looked new on new stock and are marked. The reprints say reprint, and the fantasies have dates. I just want Helmar to mark their crap. I noticed on the "Helmar Cigars" (now they are a tobacco company) issues he put out had a small 2010 on the back. Can't complain about that, if he did it once why not all the time?

[steve B]

I'd be surprised if Topps was paying anything to Burdicks estate or anyone else for using the T206 designation, which should still be under copyright. The Scott stamp catalog publishers have gone after small time catalog publishers for using their numbering system. (Their licensing fee is very small)

Personally I've never really understood the licensing of images of public figures. Ruth can't benefit anymore from his right of publicity, and if I find an unpublished photo of him I should be able to reproduce and sell it.
And prints of an original artwork should be allowed as well - even if they're card sized. But it's out there and probably cheaper for Topps to license than fight.

It does look like he's changing them to make them less likely to be mistaken for vintage cards. The ones that look like crackerjacks have a date on the back, and the more recent Goudeyish ones have a multi color back with what looks like a date in the copyright circle. Small, but bigger than the copyright date on any new product.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1fc0661a

I really don't know what to say about someone spending 2-300 on something they don't know anything about, other than that it's not something I'd do. Especially these days when it's really easy to find information about something.

Steve B

PS- Has anyone seen the new disclaimer on the Topps wrappers?