Nolan Ryan what if's

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Found some stats:

1973 - Ryan pitched 2 no hitters, won 21 games, ERA 2.87, struck out 383 (new record) in 326 innings pitched. Palmer won it with 22 wins, struck out 158 in 296 innings.

1974 - Pitched another no hitter, won 22 games, struck out 367 in 333 innings, allowed only 221 hits, ERA 2.89. Catfish Hunter won it with 25 wins, struck out 143 in 318 innings, allowed 268 hits.

1972 - Ryan struck out 329 in 284 innings, ERA 2.28, won 19 games for lowly Angels. Gaylord Perry won it with 24 wins, 234 strikeouts in 343 innings.

1981 - Strike shortened year. Ryan pitched 5th no hitter, ERA 1.69, struck out his 3,300 batter. Fernando Valenzuela won it with ERA 2.48, struck out 180, won 13 games.

Ryan has over 10 one-hitters. And nearly 30 three-hitters.

What does a guy have to do to win the Cy Young? Maybe the voters were waiting for him to cure cancer.

??? It's a single-season award - plenty of great pitchers have been left out simply because other pitchers had even greater years. The Cy Young doesn't seem to be like the Oscars where they eventually hand you one just because you've had a great career (cough, cough...Clint Eastwood)

Scott <=== attended one of Ryan's no-hitters and one of his one-hitters

[Touch'EmAll]

I understand it is a single season award. The reason I posted all the stats is because I believe (imho) that Ryan did infact have better years than some of those who won the award over him.

Cy Young lost the most games - MLB record. Yeah, lets brush old Mr. Young aside. Also wonder why Ryan cards sell for way more than Seaver/Carlton/Palmer - some folks do agree with me.

I will admit I am biased in favor of Ryan, sorry for any ruffled feathers here - I just remember him having the best stuff. Ryan also holds the MLB record for lowest opponent Batting avg. He got jacked in the Cy Young voting, All-Star starts also.

[Mikehealer]

Forget a no hitter or even a 1 hitter how about just out pitching Bobby Ojeda in game 2 of the '86 NLCS, is that too much to ask. Underachiever in my book, had as much talent as anyone before or since and just a little better than a .500 pitcher.

Ryan didn't give up many hits because he walked so many hitters. His on base percentage allowed was actually high for the era he pitched in, and when you throw in all the wild pitches and stolen bases allowed, it's easy to see why he lost so many games. Cy Young may have lost 24 more games than Ryan, but he also won 187 more.

Even though Ryan pitched for a lot of poor teams, in eleven different seasons his win percentage was actually lower than his team's. He only won one of seven post season starts. He allowed an incredible 757 stolen bases while he was on the mound, far and away the most in recorded history. As I stated earlier, he was amazing - maybe the pitcher I'd most like to watch - but there are dozens and dozens of pitchers I'd rate ahead of him overall. I honestly don't think he ever had a season for which he should have won the Cy Young award.

[steve B]

But you also have to figure in a few things that aren't easy to put a number on.

Here's his losses in 73
runs for winning pitchers runs against runs against ryan
2 wilcox 6
0 palmer 5
4 bahnsen/forster 7 5
1 wood/acosta 4
1 lee/bolin 2
0 peterson/lyle 2
5 Tiant/bolin 6
3 acosta 8 7
0 blyleven 4
0 holtzman 3
1 cuellar 7 6
1 cuellar 3 2 extra inn.
1 bibby 7 4
1 moret/veale 2
2 colborn 6
0 curtis 4

He didn't get much run support, getting more than 3 runs in only 2 of the 15 losses. I didn't have time to break out earned vs unearned runs.

He also pitched tons of innings, even getting a save along the way.


Another thing I wonder about is how many of the walks were from umpires having trouble seeing the pitches well. I've read a few books by umpires, and they do say Ryans pitches were hard to see.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I understand it is a single season award. The reason I posted all the stats is because I believe (imho) that Ryan did infact have better years than some of those who won the award over him.

Cy Young lost the most games - MLB record. Yeah, lets brush old Mr. Young aside. Also wonder why Ryan cards sell for way more than Seaver/Carlton/Palmer - some folks do agree with me.

I will admit I am biased in favor of Ryan, sorry for any ruffled feathers here - I just remember him having the best stuff. Ryan also holds the MLB record for lowest opponent Batting avg. He got jacked in the Cy Young voting, All-Star starts also.

There's no feather-ruffling - I have probably seen Nolan Ryan pitch more than anyone on this board other than sports writers, and he is my favorite retired pitcher. Nolan Ryan was very popular and the greatest strikeout pitcher of all time, and he's still popular and in the spotlight - no real secret why his cards sell for more.

But if you think he deserved the Cy Young, give examples (years and winners who he outperformed) - I didn't see you compare him to any winners for any particular year. Personally, as much as I liked him, I can still only think of one year when he might have deserved it, but I'll wait for your examples since you brought this up.

[Touch'EmAll]

Runscott - I did compare him to the pitchers who won in Ryan,s better years - please see my 2nd post to this thread - I compared him to Palmer's stats in 1973, Hunter's stats in 1974, Perry's stats in 1972, and Valenzuela's stats in 1981.

Also note when looking at Ryan's stats - the 1970's were when all the absurd walks numbers came from. In the 1980's, Ryan gained better control and walked far fewer batters. In fact, he led the league in Strikeout/walk ratio in the mid-1980's.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Runscott - I did compare him to the pitchers who won in Ryan,s better years - please see my 2nd post to this thread - I compared him to Palmer's stats in 1973, Hunter's stats in 1974, Perry's stats in 1972, and Valenzuela's stats in 1981.

Also note when looking at Ryan's stats - the 1970's were when all the absurd walks numbers came from. In the 1980's, Ryan gained better control and walked far fewer batters. In fact, he led the league in Strikeout/walk ratio in the mid-1980's.

True, but you left out very key information in order to build up Ryan.

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Found some stats:

1973 - Ryan pitched 2 no hitters, won 21 games, ERA 2.87, struck out 383 (new record) in 326 innings pitched. Palmer won it with 22 wins, struck out 158 in 296 innings.

Not picking on you, but for instance,

In 1973 Ryan led the league in walks and lost 16 games. You left this out, as well as Palmer's ERA. Palmer lost only 9 games and led the league with a 2.40 ERA. Unless you consider K/Innings ratio to be more important than ERA, and you minimize the difference in wins and losses (Hunter had the edge in both), Hunter easily takes the Cy Young in '73.

In 1974 Ryan was 22-16, Hunter was 25-12 with a 2.49 ERA. Again, you left out the losses and Hunter's ERA. Hunter led the league in both ERA and wins. So Ryan led the league in K's - he also led the league in BB's. The Cy Young deservedly went to Hunter.

I was into baseball very heavily during all the years you mentioned, I was a huge Ryan fan, and I always wanted him to win the Cy Young. He didn't, and I don't feel he ever deserved it. I'm very happy that his career continued to improve, he lasted a long time, and he made the HOF. I love strikeouts and no-hitters as much as the next guy, but while he had a few years that would have warranted the Cy Young if he had been up against lesser candidates, you haven't shown me any years where he deserved it.