Circa 1846 Daguerreotype – Alexander Joy Cartwright debate

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

No, the photos are oriented correctly. We can see more than enough of the ear and the entire earlobe. The difference in ear angle is huge.

So, you're telling me that the original HPD's orientation was either reversed, or all three of the photo's you used were accidentally flipped when you posted them. Because in the HPD, Adams(?) was facing to the viewers left, while in the three photo's you posted they were all(including the one cropped from the HPD) facing the viewers right..Which would leave me to believe that you're comparing the wrong ear.. If you flipped 'em all then I get where you're coming from, and would probably side with you in saying that it's not Adams then.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by novakjr

So, you're telling me that the original HPD's orientation was either reversed, or all three of the photo's you used were accidentally flipped when you posted them. Because in the HPD, Adams(?) was facing to the viewers left, while in the three photo's you posted they were all(including the one cropped from the HPD) facing the viewers right..

The original HPD is a mirror image of reality. That's why all comparisons in the newsletter were based on the image top right page 3.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The original HPD is a mirror image of reality. That's why all comparisons in the newsletter were based on the image top right page 3.

Very good. Since that's the case, I'm leaning toward being pretty sure it's not Adams..Not Definitely, but strongly leaning..

[barrysloate]

Mark- I was one of the people who said that the burden of proof rests with you. Here is my reasoning. Corey bought this photo in good faith and put it in his safe deposit box, where it has been for the last twenty years. He had no obligation to deal with this issue if he didn't want to. If he were putting the dag up for sale, say in a public auction, and you challenged the identity, then I believe he would either have to prove it's Cartwright or remove it from the marketplace. But he has no other obligation once it is in his collection. He had the choice to ignore this whole issue if he wanted, since even if it is misidentified he was harming no one. He had no obligation to defend his belief it is Cartwright; he is free to say it's Abe Lincoln if that makes him happy. When the day comes that he or his descendents decide to sell it, then the burden shifts to him/them. Does that make sense?

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Mark- I was one of the people who said that the burden of proof rests with you. Here is my reasoning. Corey bought this photo in good faith and put it in his safe deposit box, where it has been for the last twenty years. He had no obligation to deal with this issue if he didn't want to. If he were putting the dag up for sale, say in a public auction, and you challenged the identity, then I believe he would either have to prove it's Cartwright or remove it from the marketplace. But he has no other obligation once it is in his collection. He had the choice to ignore this whole issue if he wanted, since even if it is misidentified he was harming no one. He had no obligation to defend his belief it is Cartwright; he is free to say it's Abe Lincoln if that makes him happy. When the day comes that he or his descendents decide to sell it, then the burden shifts to him/them. Does that make sense?

It doesn't to me. This should not be about Corey or Corey's feelings (or mine). I understand that he did not have to cooperate with me in this endeavor and I appreciate that he did and what he has at stake. However, if he did not, I still could have made a very credible presentation - certainly not nearly as good, but it still would have raised doubts about the HPD and raised questions as to why he did not want to have this discussion.

What historians and collectors should be primarily interested in is what is true (or probably true if that's the best we can do). If a persons reads the newsletter and decides that subject C is probably not Cartwright - that is a completely valid assessment. If that person is a baseball writer and he thus decides to not use the HPD in his book - are you saying that is not valid given what I have presented? I fully believe I have more than met what ever justifiable burden I had.

[barrysloate]

I agree Mark that the truth is the most important thing. I'm just saying Corey had no obligation to respond if he didn't want to. No ethical boundary would have been breached if he chose to not get involved in the debate. It's to his credit that he engaged in it, but he didn't have to. That is what I meant.

[bmarlowe1]

With that I absolutely agree.