Circa 1846 Daguerreotype – Alexander Joy Cartwright debate

[bmarlowe1]

>> Second, what blows my mind about this is that you raise a point in your response yet prohibit me from seeking a response from Mr. Richards. Wasn't it the case that the publication of the newsletter supplement was delayed for a few days while you and I went back and forth on whether my reference to lens focal length was generated by the knowledge I obtained from being a college physics major who studied optics, as opposed to being obtained from Jerry Richards?

Your are free to inform us as to how focal length affects what we see in this case. The agreement as I understood it was my expert – your expert – my response – your response. I felt it was fair to see your expert's opinion before I made my final response.

>> Please don't mention the 20% difference you still see. May I respectfully suggest you educate yourself on margin of error analysis associated with daguerreotype emulsion type.

Yes – please explain exactly how your “margin of error” number is derived.

>>Mr. Mancusi felt he saw a very significant discrepancy, which I believe influenced him greatly in his conclusion. Yet in the end that discrepancy turned out not to exist.

It does exist. I'm sure you will tell us without explanation that this is but another illusion. Note that C and A4 are both from dags.

[bmarlowe1]

>>I agree it's not so simple. If these differences exist in all photo shoots, are not affected by the passage of time and are objective, then they would be exclusionary. Yet your own expert does not characterize them as such. So perhaps their presence is a function of the time difference between comparison images and particularities of pose.

You have made the same point several times and my answer is the same. If what you say is true, then one should be able to go though dags of famous people or photos of 19thC ball players and relatively easily find multiple feature differences between faces of the same person such as those exhibited in the C vs. A comparison. I maintain that such examples would be at least extremely difficult to find. In any case - you don't have to do it today, I am patient. I'm even willing to help you. I can certainly supply the faces.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

>>I agree it's not so simple. If these differences exist in all photo shoots, are not affected by the passage of time and are objective, then they would be exclusionary. Yet your own expert does not characterize them as such. So perhaps their presence is a function of the time difference between comparison images and particularities of pose.

You have made the same point several times and my answer is the same. If what you say is true, then one should be able to go though dags of famous people or photos of 19thC ball players and relatively easily find multiple feature differences between faces of the same person such as those exhibited in the C vs. A comparison. I maintain that such examples would be at least extremely difficult to find. In any case - you don't have to do it today, I am patient. I'm even willing to help you. I can certainly supply the faces.

I really really wanted to go back to Jerry to respond to this Mark, but I knew you wouldn't allow it. So the question now is, after one year of doing this, are we to continue? I don't know. I know that for what matters, I have satisfied myself, which as I said earlier has always been my main objective. I now have to weigh whether continuing the discussion and investing more time and money is something I want to do. I tend to think not, but in time I might feel differently. As I consider the matter, would you agree to split the expense?

[bmarlowe1]

>> I really really wanted to go back to Jerry to respond to this Mark, but I knew you wouldn't allow it.

Corey - I would have allowed it if I then had yet another opportunity to respond to Jerry, again. However, as you know this thing came off the rails several times. IMO - it would have never ended. I was really not aware of the extent to which you felt that your own skills were not up to responding to me (and I'm still not sure you felt that way). I really don't think lens effects or perspective distortion are an issue in this case, but perhaps someone could argue otherwise.

I must add that there are a number of points that you made in your final response that I would very much like to respond to, but you rightly had the last word in the newsletter supplement. I plan to respond in the next issue. I may address some of them here if it seems worthwhile.

>> So the question now is, after one year of doing this, are we to continue? I don't know.....I have satisfied myself, which as I said earlier has always been my main objective. I now have to weigh whether continuing the discussion and investing more time and money is something I want to do...As I consider the matter, would you agree to split the expense?

As to expense, my funds for this are very limited, but we would have to discuss that offline. In any case, if you wish to engage Jerry or anyone else to respond to anything I have said - that is your choice. There is nothing preventing you from submitting such a response to Bill H. for a future newsletter cycle, posting it on Net54, or publishing it anywhere else you wish.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I was really not aware of the extent to which you felt that your own skills were not up to responding to me (and I'm still not sure you felt that way). I really don't think lens effects or perspective distortion are an issue in this case, but perhaps someone could argue otherwise.

I believe I have skills in this area, but they don't compare to Jerry Richards'. IMO the experience of doing thousands of photographic facial comparisons gives a perspective that no amount of book learning can replicate. It bears directly on your point of providing instances of identical subjects that exhibit the same facial discrepancies we see in this instance. I know what Jerry told me over the phone. He and I had several in depth discussions about it. As to providing examples, he would be the person to provide them both because presumably he would have the data base to do it, and because without such a data base I can't justify the tremendous amount of time required for the task.

[bmarlowe1]

>>I believe I have skills in this area, but they don't compare to Jerry Richards'. IMO the experience of doing thousands of photographic facial comparisons gives a perspective that no amount of book learning can replicate. It bears directly on your point of providing instances of identical subjects that exhibit the same facial discrepancies we see in this instance.

I agree that experience is more important than book learning. That's why I stated the following:
p5:
Active forensic artists working for major metropolitan police departments may analyze and compare hundreds or more faces every month, thousands every year, many tens of thousands over a long career. Their primary focus is faces. There is no substitute for that kind of experience.
p28:
There is no substitute for the decades of repetitive intense exposure one gets as a career forensic artist working for a major metropolitan police department. There are perspectives that can only be gained by examining thousands of faces…..

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

>>I believe I have skills in this area, but they don't compare to Jerry Richards'. IMO the experience of doing thousands of photographic facial comparisons gives a perspective that no amount of book learning can replicate. It bears directly on your point of providing instances of identical subjects that exhibit the same facial discrepancies we see in this instance.

I agree that experience is more important than book learning. That's why I stated the following:
p5:
Active forensic artists working for major metropolitan police departments may analyze and compare hundreds or more faces every month, thousands every year, many tens of thousands over a long career. Their primary focus is faces. There is no substitute for that kind of experience.
p28:
There is no substitute for the decades of repetitive intense exposure one gets as a career forensic artist working for a major metropolitan police department. There are perspectives that can only be gained by examining thousands of faces…..

I have always understood that Mark, and that is why, contrary to what you have said, I do not question Mr. Mancusi's competence in comparing facial features. But since presumably his work does not involve dealing with daguerreotypes and the particularities of that photographic process, he would be lacking in certain knowledge relevant to knowing what discrepancies he perceives he sees even exist. As to the issue of methodology (i.e., his belief that it is not necessary to undertake separate comparisons with each of the A subjects), that still continues to trouble me.

[edhans]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority on this, but I'm not in favor of a poll or vote. I don't think the results, whatever they may be, would add anything beneficial to the conversation. I do appreciate the newsletter being posted so that all sides and opinions can be discussed and anyone that wants to weigh in has the opportunity to do so.

+1

[oldjudge]

Late last night I thought I had figured out who the fellow in the middle of Corey's dag was. If you look at the fellow on the left in the ambrotype shown below you will see Alexander's brother Alfred. If Alfred's face is compared to the enlarged mid-back row face from Corey's dag, he looks a lot more like this man than does Alexander (Middle of ambrotype). However, Mark has analyzed this image and has found that Alfred is not the man in the middle either. Based on this, I am drawn to the conclusion that the man in the middle is almost surely a third Cartwright relative and is not Alexander.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Late last night I thought I had figured out who the fellow in the middle of Corey's dag was. If you look at the fellow on the left in the ambrotype shown below you will see Alexander's brother Alfred. If Alfred's face is compared to the enlarged mid-back row face from Corey's dag, he looks a lot more like this man than does Alexander (Middle of ambrotype). However, Mark has analyzed this image and has found that Alfred is not the man in the middle either. Based on this, I am drawn to the conclusion that the man in the middle is almost surely a third Cartwright relative and is not Alexander.

Anyone got a photo of Benjamin? A quick internet search shows him to be the third brother in the family.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

>> Second, what blows my mind about this is that you raise a point in your response yet prohibit me from seeking a response from Mr. Richards. Wasn't it the case that the publication of the newsletter supplement was delayed for a few days while you and I went back and forth on whether my reference to lens focal length was generated by the knowledge I obtained from being a college physics major who studied optics, as opposed to being obtained from Jerry Richards?

Your are free to inform us as to how focal length affects what we see in this case. The agreement as I understood it was my expert – your expert – my response – your response. I felt it was fair to see your expert's opinion before I made my final response.

>> Please don't mention the 20% difference you still see. May I respectfully suggest you educate yourself on margin of error analysis associated with daguerreotype emulsion type.

Yes – please explain exactly how your “margin of error” number is derived.

>>Mr. Mancusi felt he saw a very significant discrepancy, which I believe influenced him greatly in his conclusion. Yet in the end that discrepancy turned out not to exist.

It does exist. I'm sure you will tell us without explanation that this is but another illusion.

First, I assume your Walgreens ruler is accurate, as is your scaling.

Second, from Mr. Richards' report.

Measuring the iris with any degree of accuracy can be problematic.

As to why he says that, I would respectfully ask you to educate yourself on margin of error analysis associated with daguerreotype emulsion type. In the alternative, just as you were kind enough to put me in touch with Mr. Mancusi, if you desire, I will ask Jerry to discuss it directly with you.

[bmarlowe1]

Agreed. i would be happy to talk to him.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Agreed. i would be happy to talk to him.

I will ask Jerry to discuss it with you.

[oldjudge]

"To my knowledge there are no markings on the dag. However, based on the plain brass matting, it is consistent with dags produced in the mid 1840's (the early stage of daguerreotypes). By the 1850's, the matting become more ornate. This is a great point that Jimmy raises and one that 20 years ago when I purchased the dag I looked into closely."

Corey, if the dag is not sealed, could you post a high resolution scan of the back?

[oldjudge]

Corey-This looks like a plain brass matting and it is on an 1855 dag. What am I missing?


http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2004/2.html

[barrysloate]

Jay- the date 1855 was approximated. I was the consignor of that lot.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Corey-This looks like a plain brass matting and it is on an 1855 dag. What am I missing?


http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2004/2.html

The dating of a dag by the matting is a negative test -- that is it shows what something is not, not what it is. Perhaps the wording in my earlier post contributed to the confusion. But by negative test I mean that since the more ornate brass mattings did not begin to appear until the 1850's, had the half plate exhibited it, we would know it could not date to the period AJC was in NYC. However, just because the half plate matting is plain, that does not mean the dag had to have been produced in the 1840's. More likely than not it was. But it is still possible that it was taken in the 1850's by a studio that was still was offering the option of the plainer mat, and that is what the customer chose.