The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"

[Fred]

STOP - Here's something that wasn't considered:

What if the BACK of that card came from a "REAL/Authentic" T206 Honus Wagner card? Let's say someone had the real deal and the front was somehow destroyed. The person then takes the "REAL" back from a REAL T-206 Honus Wagner card and pastes a fake Wagner front to it. Wouldn't that make it half real?

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

[barrysloate]

Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

[Kenny Cole]

I agree that slabbing fakes is a business model that most graders fear to venture into. Unfortunately, I fear that the demand may be higher for that service than I would like it to be. I suppose one could call it a niche market, although it is a niche market that I wish didn't exist.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

I actually responded to that in this thread, but it was ignored. I assumed that the readers felt my thoughts were irrelevant in that regard, but I still think they are legit.

[ls7plus]

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authenticity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

Yes, but what about the uncatalogued versions that actually say 'reprint' on them? Couldn't they have been released later in 1909, and the word 'reprint' used to differentiate them from the earlier releases? Don't you need to know more about their characteristics before deciding they are modern?

And please - what better way to scam people than by posing as nuns? I'm from the south, so I completely understand how I am automatically guilty of racism, any time it fits the needs of someone who I disagree with, due to the acts of my g-g-g-g-grandfather. Plus, I have always trusted nuns - sue me.

As far as the new Canadian slabbing company goes, I think it's great that the Cincinnati guys finally found a company they could trust to handle their prized card. I think this goes along with all of their other acts of altruism - how could you not trust two guys who are willing to give a start-up company their first big break?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry

You left out the part where you cited racism (prejudice). You ought not be surprised at any reaction when you bring up such a subject.