David or Richard. Who do you side with?

[tinkereversandme]

I don't want to start a new thread, but are these good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f572b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f56ff

I respect Mr. Simon but I have compared them to the Mantle's I have obtained in person and I want the opine of the knowledgable board for my education.

Thank you,

Regards,

Larry

P.S Brooks Robinson is my favorite player of all-time and just the best guy.

[Tigerden]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

I don't want to start a new thread, but are these good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f572b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item3cb19f56ff

I respect Mr. Simon but I have compared them to the Mantle's I have obtained in person and I want the opine of the knowledgable board for my education.

Thank you,

Regards,

Larry

P.S Brooks Robinson is my favorite player of all-time and just the best guy.

Really, Richard Simon was one of the founders of PSA/DNA? I was not aware of that , that is news to me. BTW- the sigs look good IMO and Richard's COA would be enough for me to feel comfortable to purchase if desired.

[RichardSimon]

These items were brought to my attention previously by someone who wanted to buy one on ebay. He wanted to check the cert out. I told him what I am telling you guys now.
I communicated with the seller and told that seller that I was not a founder of PSA and that I no longer think that those autographs were good.
When PSA formed an authentication team for autographs, I was on it, as was Jim Stinson and Ron Gordon, along with Jimmy Spence. An original authenticator but hardly a founder.
As to the autographs - it does not happen often, but my opinion changed on these.
These certs were issued 9 years ago.
I have learned a lot more about Mantle sigs in the last 9 years.
We all learn things as we go along in this business.
I have told that seller to get his money back from the person he bought the autographs from. He did not want to.
I asked him to change his ad, he did not.

[mr2686]

I'm not trying to jump on anyone with this next comment, but I'm sure there are several people thinking this: We've all heard stories about autographs that were authenticated years ago by PSA and Spence that now, if resubmitted, do not pass. As of 2002 (per the certs from Richard Simon in this thread) Richard believed that those Mantle photos were legit. That's 7 years after Mantle died and I find it curious that there would be that much more that an expert could learn at that point. I guess what I'm getting at is, what the heck is the point of getting something authenticated if the people authenticating them change their opinion years later?

[RichardSimon]

No legitimate authenticator or legitimate autograph dealer will claim to be 100% accurate.
I made a mistake.
As I said in the earlier post we learn EVERY DAY. New forgers come on the scene with different styles and you have to look for different things.
I have told everyone what happened. I did the right thing when it was first pointed out to me.
How many in this business will admit to being wrong in this public forum?
Well, I did. I did not try to make up some lame coverup to say I think it is authentic.
I am very confident in the work I do. But being perfect is not something I would claim to be.

[mr2686]

Fair enough Richard, and you shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of us...because none of us are perfect. But what I'm getting at in the bigger picture of things is...if a new forger comes along, he must still have some "tells' that don't match legit Mantle sigs. Let's face it, if they fooled you, even for a few years, then what hope do the rest of us have? Are some of these guys so good that the only way to know is when they get caught and then can compare their stuff to items already in the marketplace? Again, I'm just trying to understand and not trying to say anything bad about you Richard. Heck, I've purchased from you since the late 80's and have had you authenticate things as well (saved me some cash on a few things that went back to a dealer).

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Fair enough Richard, and you shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of us...because none of us are perfect. But what I'm getting at in the bigger picture of things is...if a new forger comes along, he must still have some "tells' that don't match legit Mantle sigs. Let's face it, if they fooled you, even for a few years, then what hope do the rest of us have? Are some of these guys so good that the only way to know is when they get caught and then can compare their stuff to items already in the marketplace? Again, I'm just trying to understand and not trying to say anything bad about you Richard. Heck, I've purchased from you since the late 80's and have had you authenticate things as well (saved me some cash on a few things that went back to a dealer).

I can't speak to these specific items, but I do have some experience uncovering forgery styles (from other areas of collecting.)

Very often, some forgeries are "close enough" that they may appear to be slightly atypical, but okay.

It is through establishing a pattern over time that they are identified as fakes. For instance, you see the same **slightly off* signature coming consistently from a particular source. Or suddenly, 7 years after Mantle's death, the quantity of a **slightly off** style appears to be increasing in the market.

So the first ones through the chute can fool even experienced authenticators and collectors. However, the forgers usually get greedy and when the forgery style appears in volume, people start catching on.