Baseball Hall of Fame Golden Era vote set for Dec. 5 ...

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I always check a player's career road splits to get a better idea of what they really accomplished. It's a low tech, convenient way of balancing out home field hitting advantages (Coors field, especially pre-humidors being an extreme example) due to short porches, clever groundskeepers, prevailing winds, etc. These are Santo's career road numbers:

4375 PA, 171 2B, 126 HR, 588 RBI, .257 BA, .406 SLG, .747 OPS

Compare that to Ron Cey's - for whom nobody is demanding hall of Fame consideration - road splits:

4135 PA, 184 2B, 150 HR, 556 RBI, .261 BA, .445 SLG, .797 OPS


Incidentally, Santo's lifetime fielding percentage was .954. Cey's was .961

Ron Cey was certainly a better than average player and is very often overlooked for just how good he really was. His career OPS+ (which takes home park, era played in, etc into account) was 121. That is quite a bit above average. Santo's career OPS+ was 125. That's even better. What's more, Santo had FAR mo range in the field than did Cey, as can be seen by chances per inning.

Also, don't forget that Santo was just 34 when he retired, and he played his entire career with diabetis. I've been on the Santo For The Hall crusade for years.

Tom C

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Boy do the writers love pitchers or what! Maybe they should elect players by position to even things up.

Well, pitchers do make up 40% or more of every roster, so it stands to reason there would be a lot of them in the HOF

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Also, don't forget that Santo was just 34 when he retired, and he played his entire career with diabetis.

IMHO, neither of these items bears any relevance to whether Santo was a HOF'er. IMHO, he's a HOF'er but his early retirement and diabetes are a non-factor.

Other than Santo, I don't think any of the 8 players deserves to be in. I won't scream if Ken Boyer makes it but the rest definitely don't belong.

Tabe

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Well, pitchers do make up 40% or more of every roster, so it stands to reason there would be a lot of them in the HOF


IMHO, neither of these items bears any relevance to whether Santo was a HOF'er. IMHO, he's a HOF'er but his early retirement and diabetes are a non-factor.

Other than Santo, I don't think any of the 8 players deserves to be in. I won't scream if Ken Boyer makes it but the rest definitely don't belong.

Tabe

For those to whom "counting" stats are important, Santo's early retirement should be taken into consideration. He did not have a chance to pad his stats. Most likely would have reached 400 homers. The diabetis is more a feel good interesting side note.

During the 1960's only Aaron and Frank Robinson had more RBI I belive...there may have been one other but he was right up there.

Tom C

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

During the 1960's only Aaron and Frank Robinson had more RBI I belive...there may have been one other but he was right up there.

Tom C

Mays and Killebrew also had more RBI's during the 1960's than Santo.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

Mays and Killebrew also had more RBI's during the 1960's than Santo.

Fifth behind Aaron, Mays, Killebrew and Frank Robinson is not a bad place to be. Santo may have been the greatest offensive third baseman the National League had ever seen before Mike Schmidt came along. That to go along with record setting defense...

I've been riding the Santo-For-The-Hall train for the past decade plus. So join me dammit!

Tom C

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Fifth behind Aaron, Mays, Killebrew and Frank Robinson is not a bad place to be. Santo may have been the greatest offensive third baseman the National League had ever seen before Mike Schmidt came along. That to go along with record setting defense...

I've been riding the Santo-For-The-Hall train for the past decade plus. So join me dammit!

Tom C

I'm with you if you'll join me on the Cocoa Laboy-For-The-Hall train. If we keep saying we should vote in guys who are just a hair below a guy whose already in the hall, we'll eventually get to Cocoa. Whoohoo!!!!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm with you if you'll join me on the Cocoa Laboy-For-The-Hall train. If we keep saying we should vote in guys who are just a hair below a guy whose already in the hall, we'll eventually get to Cocoa. Whoohoo!!!!

Problem is Santo is probably a better overall player than 30-40% of those who are already in. It's statistically not a question of him being a hair below. In fact...I would venture that he is one of the ten best all around third basemen in history. Probably closer to 5 than 10.

Tom C

[sayhey24]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm with you if you'll join me on the Cocoa Laboy-For-The-Hall train. If we keep saying we should vote in guys who are just a hair below a guy whose already in the hall, we'll eventually get to Cocoa. Whoohoo!!!!

He's not saying Santo is a hair below "a guy who's already in the Hall", he's saying Santo is a hair below the greatest third baseman of all time. If we didn't give guys credit for being a hair below the greatest at their position, there would be only nine players in the Hall (actually some people might like that!)

Living through the 60s, I thought Santo was the best third baseman in his league, the NL counterpart to Brooks Robinson. I was surprised that a couple of people dismissed his diabetes when considering his case -- I would think overcoming a huge physical challenge is most certainly part of what helps define a Hall of Famer in any field.

I also believe Hodges should be a definite -- I think he belongs on his playing career alone, but I've never understood how when you throw in the fact that he was the manager of one of the most miraculous WS winning teams of all time, he still gets no love.

Greg

p.s. I always liked Coco Laboy -- I got his autograph in Cooperstown when the Expos played the White Sox in the HOF game in 1970 ( I think that was the year).