Ruth Card

[iggyman]

Great catch Anthony (both on the Ruth and the Cobb)! Thought it was a home run, but you snagged it at the wall! Score one for the good guys. I don't think I've ever won anything from Great Lakes Shell Game Auction House, but I sure would be leary of bidding on anything in the future (disclaimer: unless, I really really needed it).

On another tangent........Scott, perhaps I need to be enlighten, but Goudeys don't have "bleed through" they have "wet sheet transfers". Have I been drinking kool-aid all these years??? Looks like we need a poll.

Lovely Day...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Great catch Anthony (both on the Ruth and the Cobb)! Thought it was a home run, but you snagged it at the wall! Score one for the good guys. I don't think I've ever won anything from Great Lakes Shell Game Auction House, but I sure would be leary of bidding on anything in the future (disclaimer: unless, I really really needed it).

On another tangent........Scott, perhaps I need to be enlighten, but Goudeys don't have "bleed through" they have "wet sheet transfers". Have I been drinking kool-aid all these years??? Looks like we need a poll.

Lovely Day...

Iggy, I might be wrong on this one. I will readily admit that my memory sucks even more as I age. But I know what wet sheet transfer is (I even wrote an article that talks about it: http://runscott.homestead.com/Articles.html)

I had a pretty nice '34 Goudey collection, but I haven't handled these cards in five years or so, and own none currently, so I'll rely on the opinions of others - you sound like you collect them, so I'll take your word for it.

...Still, I'm going to buy a common off ebay that appears to have the bleed through, just to enlighten myself again. I have a '33 Gehrig that should arrive any day now, but the back looked pretty clean.

[Runscott]

Here's a very good example from the current SCP auction. If you look at the image of the front, the ink lines up exactly, as it does in all Goudeys (at least that's the way I remember it). If it were wet sheet, the back would not always be lined up exactly with the front.

Also, SCP agrees with you. From their lot description: Back super clean also but there is a ghost of the front of the card, the result of sheets being stacked at the plant before the colors had completely dried.

Show me I'm wrong - I have no issue with learning something new.

[fkw]

Besides the point that the card in the topic is obviously authentic...

common sense would tell you that its 100% impossible for a card as thick as a R319 or R320 to have so called "Bleed Through"

Even if the card was made out of a single layer of tissue or typing paper it would be heavily distorted if the ink bleed through, plus it would have to be "Magic Ink" to make it through the many thin layers of paper that make up the thick stock of these Goudey cards and still be sharp and easily readable.

All of these are "Wet Ink Transfers" made when the printers stacked these sheets while printing them and with some weight from the stack the slightly tacky ink from the front transfers to the back (or front sometimes too).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by fkw

Besides the point that the card in the topic is obviously authentic...

common sense would tell you that its 100% impossible for a card as thick as a R319 or R320 to have so called "Bleed Through"

Even if the card was made out of a single layer of tissue or typing paper it would be heavily distorted if the ink bleed through, plus it would have to be "Magic Ink" to make it through the many thin layers of paper that make up the thick stock of these Goudey cards and still be sharp and easily readable.

All of these are "Wet Ink Transfers" made when the printers stacked these sheets while printing them and with some weight from the stack the slightly tacky ink from the front transfers to the back (or front sometimes too).

yes, common sense would tell us a lot of things about cards that aren't necessarily true (such as whether a postcard was printed in the 1930's or the 1970's, based on obvious differences in printing techniques for the two periods).

I have never understood the Goudeys and the bleed through thing, but as you say, it does not make sense that it is actually bleed through. The problem with it being wet ink is, as I mentioned before, and no one has explained other than to simply say I'm wrong, is (and I'm repeating myself here) that the ink on the back is always lined up perfectly with the ink on the front. This is not true of any other issue that I've seen.

Frank, please explain this. Seriously, I agree with you - I just don't get it from a printing perspective. If they can always line up the sheets so perfectly after printing, how come registration is commonly off, as is centering? Have we ever seen a 'bleed through' (or wet sheet) example where the ink on the back is NOT lined up?

Also, I'm sure that whoever has the above card in hand (the example I posted), would simply have to loupe it to tell immediately whether or not the 'bleed through' is over or under the green lettering.

[steve B]

Wet sheet transfers can happen at a few points during the production. Some of those can have the ink lined up exactly, but not all of them. I'll explain those after I get a couple of the other questions out of the way.

The offset transfers being lined up has nothing to do with the registration or the cutting. The registration is a function of the platemaking and the press adjustment. The cutting is a completely different operation. (Although offset transfers can happen during cutting)

Wether the offset is over or under the green back printing doesn't matter. All that would indicate is wether the back was printed before the front or after. Printing it after the front makes sense as it's only one color -less work would be ruined if there was a problem.

On most "modern" presses the sheets are fed from a stack of sheets and run through the press in excatly the same position. The press then deposits them on a removable platform. During this phase, there's a bit of air between the sheets. This air makes the sheets move easily in relation to the stack. But when it's time to do the next step, you need a very neat stack of sheets. so the press has a set of guides to direct the sheets to be exactly on top of each other.

Now if that stack is allowed to get too tall, the air will be forced out, and the weight of the stack will make offset transfers. The very bottom of the stack will be the clearest, and the offsets will get weaker farther up the stack.
Offsets that happen there will all be aligned exactly with the fronts.
A good press operator switches the removable platforms before this happens.

The rest of the places offsets can happen are during handling. And in that handling the sheets aren't usually aligned as precisely because a number of sheets are being moved from one place to another.

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Since the offset on the Ruth is a complete offset either Goudeys were printed on a multi color press(Like 2-4 or more presses attached together each doing one color) OR they were printed in a big hurry. Since the print shop was probably trying to do them as cheaply as possible they likely were rushing and overstacking.


Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Wet sheet transfers can happen at a few points during the production. ....

Steve B

Steve, it's great to have an expert in this area on the board. There were many years when we were clueless as to how this worked (or no one was talking).

Thanks,
Scott