Muhammad Ali Autograph on Angelo Marino REAL?

[Mr. Zipper]

I'm not sure if there is a question in there.

Nice looking piece. Speaking for myself, no matter how real, I would not want one. The Marino name taints it beyond desirability in my view. I'm sure there are collectors who would not care, however.

[jcmtiger]

There is a question here. He wants to know if the autograph is real or not.
I'm not sure if it is, it is different than my signed piece. I had this signed in person in 1985 at a show in Dearborn Michigan. I'm sure ali's signature does change through the years. The white spots are reflections from ceiling lights.

Joe

[travrosty]

Give me a nice big photo of the autograph, straight on and i will tell you if it is real or not.


nice print otherwise and to say its undesirable because of a name is crazy.

[Mr. Zipper]

What am I missing here? The OP states his grandfather and father "hired the artist and athlete to sign the Original and 550 limited litho's." Plus he has photographs of the signing session.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by travrosty

nice print otherwise and to say its undesirable because of a name is crazy.

Call me crazy. I don't want any artwork in my home that came from the family behind the biggest forgery ring in history. Angelo Marino was not an unknowing bystander. Tens of thousands of victims. Tens of millions in fraud. I could never look at it without thinking of that.

[drc]

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

[drc]

What you could do is post one signature on eBay and get a PSA/DNA or JSA Quick Opinion. If one and/or the other approves, this gives independent evidence to buyers that the signature is genuine.

What I would do to get their opinion is post how it was from a signing for your family, with photo of Ali sigining but not mention the Marino angle. This is to get their objective opinion. When you then turn to sell them, you can mention the Marino angle.

I got a PSA/DNA Quick opinion for a Dr. Mike Marshall signed baseball and it was quick and easy. I mentioned I bought it from Lelands, with picture of the catalog listing, as I thought it would help my cause-- and got thumbs up. The process was easy, took less than 24 hours and you get the opinion in print outable form.

One can fairly argue about the merits of paying for a PSA/DNA opinion, but it definitely helped in resale of a rare autograph. Like it or not, it gives many buyers more confidence in the authenticity. Yes, it is a marketing tool.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

From what I understand Marino was a well known artist who forged autographs on some of his own artwork he sold. There's no reason he couldn't have been hired as an artist by a third party for their own signings. Presumably, this being before the third party (and others) knew Marino was forging autographs (or had yet to forge) on his own.

If I'm correct, Marino was a well known artist, presumably hired by others to do artwork, before he started forging autographs.

David -
Marino the artist, was not a forger, he was the father of two sons who were the major players in the biggest forgery ring ever busted by the FBI. The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The family was also a participant in the ring. The brothers served several years in prison, if only such a fate could befall the rest of the criminals in the autograph hobby.

Correct. The old man, Angelo, was not the forger, but knew what was going on according to Operation Bullpen by Kevin Nelson. His artwork should be shunned on principle.

[grandstand69]

Travis, just in case you were interested I went to the storage and pulled 20 of the 300+ Ali Lithographs I mentioned. I took some pictures of the pieces I'll be selling off. You mentioned if you saw a few all together it would be easier, so I've done just that. I also have another angle of Ali Signing which clearly shows location. Keep in mind I'm bugging the experts in this field only because I don't want an item kicked off eBay which in turn hurts my selling standard rating. I know my grandfather and pops would not have left these to me to sell if something shady was behind it all. Hopefully this helps.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by grandstand69

Travis, just in case you were interested I went to the storage and pulled 20 of the 300+ Ali Lithographs I mentioned. I took some pictures of the pieces I'll be selling off. You mentioned if you saw a few all together it would be easier, so I've done just that. I also have another angle of Ali Signing which clearly shows location. Keep in mind I'm bugging the experts in this field only because I don't want an item kicked off eBay which in turn hurts my selling standard rating. I know my grandfather and pops would not have left these to me to sell if something shady was behind it all. Hopefully this helps.

thanks, it does help. you know that these are good. You don't have to prove it to anyone, except maybe ebay if they question it. but thats the problem if they want to sink it, they will and not much you can do. Doesn't mean they are no good, just that ebay wont allow them to be listed. True boxing collectors that know what they are doing will go by the signature, not the artist who made the lithograph, no matter how he is connected to past forgeries. The autograph will stand on its own. There will always be people who see the Marino family name and won't want anything associated with it, even if its legit. That's their perogative, but it means that much more for the rest of us, who want Ali's signature and not Angelo's. but also don't let the Angelo connection sink a good autograph.

however, if you put one on ebay, you cant just tell ebay that this guy or that guy checked them out. because they dont listen, they will go with what psa or whoever they have on staff thinks. thats a big problem, but its not something anyone else can solve. i think having the photo of ali signing the lithographs would help prove your case to ebay in case they tried to pull it. but otherwise it is a crabshoot.

If they are hell bent on taking them off of ebay, then they will, and it will be because someone reported it and psa or someone else they rely on agreed, (rightly or wrongly), and saying that this boxing guy or that one liked it won't help unfortunately. I wish it would help.

The good news is that good, legit Ali signatures are good legit Ali signatures. Nothing can change it and there will always be a market for it.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by travrosty

thanks, it does help. you know that these are good. You don't have to prove it to anyone, except maybe ebay if they question it. but thats the problem if they want to sink it, they will and not much you can do. Doesn't mean they are no good, just that ebay wont allow them to be listed. True boxing collectors that know what they are doing will go by the signature, not the artist who made the lithograph, no matter how he is connected to past forgeries. The autograph will stand on its own. There will always be people who see the Marino family name and won't want anything associated with it, even if its legit. That's their perogative, but it means that much more for the rest of us, who want Ali's signature and not Angelo's. but also don't let the Angelo connection sink a good autograph.

however, if you put one on ebay, you cant just tell ebay that this guy or that guy checked them out. because they dont listen, they will go with what psa or whoever they have on staff thinks. thats a big problem, but its not something anyone else can solve. i think having the photo of ali signing the lithographs would help prove your case to ebay in case they tried to pull it. but otherwise it is a crabshoot.

If they are hell bent on taking them off of ebay, then they will, and it will be because someone reported it and psa or someone else they rely on agreed, (rightly or wrongly), and saying that this boxing guy or that one liked it won't help unfortunately. I wish it would help.

The good news is that good, legit Ali signatures are good legit Ali signatures. Nothing can change it and there will always be a market for it.

If you do put it up on ebay and it gets pulled. Just wait about a month. There is going to be a new auction place for people to sell autographs like ebay. More news on this as it becomes available, but I was told tonight that they are 3-4 weeks away from launching. There will be a new 3rd party authentication company also, one that guarantee's it's opinion with a money back promise. SO not only will you get a opinion, you will get one that is backed by cold hard cash!
More details soon...

[grandstand69]

Thanks everyone for all the support. I have had one online now for a few days. From what I gather the listing already passed quick opinion. I did post several different samples from the batch to show it's not a perfect auto every single time. There are a lot of watchers, nobody has questioned me on the signature and bidding seems to be moving along. I have gambled with just 1 right now, if selling price averages out $300+ I will more than likely place in my storefront or Multi auction with buy now. If anyone is interested just do a search for Muhammad Ali "The Greatest" and maybe place a bid and try to win. It's at $105 with 2 days left and 130 watchers. Again thanks to everyone for your support

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Ringking

If you do put it up on ebay and it gets pulled. Just wait about a month. There is going to be a new auction place for people to sell autographs like ebay. More news on this as it becomes available, but I was told tonight that they are 3-4 weeks away from launching. There will be a new 3rd party authentication company also, one that guarantee's it's opinion with a money back promise. SO not only will you get a opinion, you will get one that is backed by cold hard cash!
More details soon...

Ringking I hope this is not going to be another failure.
There have been several attempts in the past to start an autograph auction site.
ebay still has the market cornered.
I sell regularly on ebay. I sell to collectors all over the world. I never did that before ebay came along. They have such a hold on the market that it is a longshot for any startup to take them on.
And about authenticators, there are new authenticators coming out of the woodwork, seemingly every other day.
Do you know what their money back guarantee will consist of? What if the new company says the item is authentic and PSA says it is not. Does that qualify for the money back guarantee?
I would only hope for total success for these ventures but the failures of the past make me really skeptical that any new auction site or new legitimate authentication company can succeed and break the stranglehold of ebay and the alphabet soup authentication companies.