Very, very, interesting...

RichardSimon · #1 12-12-2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

So cynical, Richard!

I see the point. However, the same could be said for non-TPA autographs that have been deemed forgeries. Nothing is stopping an unethical owner from passing it along to an unsuspecting buyer.

True Zip, but if it is in a plastic tomb it most likely won't even get questioned by most.

travrosty · #2 12-12-2011, 07:51 PM

exactly right, if it is encased with a cert label, people wont question it, because it has been 'deemed authentic' by the worlds experts, and since they most likely arent a world expert, they wont question it.

if it is not encased, and it is a forgery that is loose, people might ask questions, have skepticism, which is good. If you encase it with a cert label, it better be good, you had better have done your homework, which they don't do in my opinion. several wife signed sonny listons in holders selling for 1000 dollars apiece. with no refund coming from the company that certed it. that's real money.

forgeries encased with a cert label are bought, sold, traded as authentic without question, except by a few people like me who question them but are labeled as troublemakers. That's why this whole system needs to be reformed.

thebigtrain · #3 12-12-2011, 10:59 PM

If it does turn out that the FBI forensics experts deem the pristine Ruths on Hauls of Shame as forgeries (which I firmly believe they all are), that will pretty much be the end of sports autograph collecting. PSA will be tarnished beyond repair, and the lawsuits will likely bankrupt them.

From a common sense perspective, it seems unlikely that such a large quantity of Ruths in that condition would have survived. Also, why did they all surface around the same time (late 90s/early 00s)?

Be pretty funny if PSA ends up out of business and Coach's Corner survives.

Seems the only way to be sure of your Ruth is to build a time machine, go back to pre-1948, and have him sign it in front of you. Short of that, there will always be questions, which kind of sucks all the fun out of it.

David Atkatz · #4 12-12-2011, 11:25 PM

The end of sports autograph collecting? Hardly.
How many of those Ruths would have sold for such extraordinarily high prices had they not been vetted by the TPAs? How many would have been rejected by buyers or even the auction houses had they not been given that TPA imprimatur?

If those balls are found to be fraudulent--and I, too, believe they will--it is the TPAs who (hopefully) will disappear. Sports autograph collecting (at least for those who educate themselves) will be better for it.

E93 · #5 12-13-2011, 12:01 AM

I am not an autograph collector so I have no dog in this, but I missed the part where Nash presented any evidence. I am not doubting there are forgeries out there - just saying Nash does nothing here but try to set off alarms IMHO. I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt. Hasn't he been accused of some of the largest memorabilia fraud in the hobby? His Hall of Shame website seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
JimB
P.S. I have not read through this whole thread so excuse me if anyone has already said this.

David Atkatz · #6 12-13-2011, 12:11 AM

It's reasonably obvious that no fewer than three distinct hands were involved in signing those baseballs. Thus, regardless of what Nash has done in the past, at least 2/3 of them are forgeries.

travrosty · #7 12-13-2011, 12:16 AM

that first photo where it shows three distinctly different styles, that says it all for me.

Leon · #8 12-13-2011, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

I am not an autograph collector so I have no dog in this, but I missed the part where Nash presented any evidence. I am not doubting there are forgeries out there - just saying Nash does nothing here but try to set off alarms IMHO. I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt. Hasn't he been accused of some of the largest memorabilia fraud in the hobby? His Hall of Shame website seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
JimB
P.S. I have not read through this whole thread so excuse me if anyone has already said this.

Good points Jim. I too have some issue with the "pot" here but, as has been said, if the forensic experts deem (prove) the signatures bad it won't be who turned them in but what they are, that matters. Actually, I feel most bad for the collectors in all of this. They are the ones falling short on the leap they made, all the while relying on experts to help pave their way. I have a feeling PSA and the other TPA's will rely on their wording in their certs to not be legally liable though. I would guess there will eventually be some court cases about this so the lawyers might be the winners in the long run. It will be interesting how this plays out.

19cbb · #9 12-13-2011, 10:00 AM

Pots, kettles ... whatever.

Forgers, authenticators and auction houses have been profiteering for years and it's about time they are held accountable.

An organized criminal ring? It could be possible in an industry where everybody knows your name [insert Cheers theme song] ... but that will be up to authorities to determine.

doug.goodman · #10 12-13-2011, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebigtrain

If it does turn out that the FBI forensics experts deem the pristine Ruths on Hauls of Shame as forgeries (which I firmly believe they all are), that will pretty much be the end of sports autograph collecting.

With all due respect...

that made me laugh out loud.

It will be the end for people who collect pretty plastic cases, maybe.

Doug

slidekellyslide · #11 12-13-2011, 02:37 PM

I don't feel bad for anyone who drops 50-300 grand on a Babe Ruth "Blazer" just because some dude at ABC Authentication said it was good...same way I don't feel bad for the guy who wrecks his Ferrari while driving 50 miles over the speed limit..it's reckless. Without ROCK SOLID PROVENANCE why would you ever spend that kind of money of something that can, has and always will be faked?

Leon · #12 12-13-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't feel bad for anyone who drops 50-300 grand on a Babe Ruth "Blazer" just because some dude at ABC Authentication said it was good...same way I don't feel bad for the guy who wrecks his Ferrari while driving 50 miles over the speed limit..it's reckless. Without ROCK SOLID PROVENANCE why would you ever spend that kind of money of something that can, has and always will be faked?

Pertaining to the collectors I agree with you Dan but those guys are still passionate collectors. They have only made mistakes and I think it's a shame when honest people get defrauded, even if they did make a bad decision. They should still get what they paid for and they aren't. As for the guys that are driving expensive cars over the speed limit and crashing them, they are doing something illegal. The guys buying the fake autographs aren't.

slidekellyslide · #13 12-13-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Pertaining to the collectors I agree with you Dan but those guys are still passionate collectors. They have only made mistakes and I think it's a shame when honest people get defrauded, even if they did make a bad decision. They should still get what they paid for and they aren't. As for the guys that are driving expensive cars over the speed limit and crashing them, they are doing something illegal. The guys buying the fake autographs aren't.

I tend to think that more money than brains have led to the proliferation of fraud in our hobby. People need to be more careful and more questioning... With that said it doesn't mean that I don't think the fraudsters should be dealt with harshly...I won't go as far as Br*ce and say they deserve the death penalty, but I think millions of dollars in forgeries deserves a good long prison sentence.

Runscott · #14 12-14-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Pertaining to the collectors I agree with you Dan but those guys are still passionate collectors. They have only made mistakes and I think it's a shame when honest people get defrauded, even if they did make a bad decision. They should still get what they paid for and they aren't. As for the guys that are driving expensive cars over the speed limit and crashing them, they are doing something illegal. The guys buying the fake autographs aren't.

Leon, I would love to own a signed Babe Ruth baseball. I have looked at many of them on auction sites and almost pulled the trigger more than once. One thing I noticed: the ones that I feel the most comfortable bidding on end up going for a lot more than the ones that I don't. When looking at high-$ autographs, I never look at the COAs - I instead look at the ball and the signature, and I compare the signature to others that I find that appear to have good provenance. Wouldn't you do a little research if you were about to drop such money on something like an autograph?

The people who didn't are idiots. They don't deserve to be defrauded, as that's an illegal act committed against them, but they do deserve to have to put up with the bullshit of trying to get recompense. It's a life lesson that will hopefully be a good one for them.

Mr. Zipper · #15 12-13-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't feel bad for anyone who drops 50-300 grand on a Babe Ruth "Blazer" just because some dude at ABC Authentication said it was good...

I feel bad for anyone who gets defrauded out of their hard-earned money.

That said, all the evidence is not in yet and there seems to be a tone of Monday Morning Quarterbacking taking shape here. One would almost get the impression that it's "obvious" these Ruth balls are fakes and "only" the TPAs thought they were good.

Prior to this development, has anyone else been consistantly identifying these balls as forgeries?

RichardSimon · #16 12-13-2011, 03:18 PM

Many people have been questioning the proliferation of high end Babe Ruth ss baseballs, for quite some time now.
But when certain auction houses gets a potential $50,000 in, what do you think can happen?

travrosty · #17 12-13-2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I feel bad for anyone who gets defrauded out of their hard-earned money.

That said, all the evidence is not in yet and there seems to be a tone of Monday Morning Quarterbacking taking shape here. One would almost get the impression that it's "obvious" these Ruth balls are fakes and "only" the TPAs thought they were good.

Prior to this development, has anyone else been consistantly identifying these balls as forgeries?

Of course it's obvious.

These balls have sold over a dozen different auction houses over a period of 15 years or longer. No one has catalogued them lilke this before. It takes a lot of effort to catalogue these and show the different distinct styles. Now that they are side by side, it is pretty obvious. The bottom one is most neutral as far as slant some parts almost straight up and down, and some parts with only slight slant to the right, the second one has an acute right slant, the top one only a slight right slant and the small e in ruth even slants the other way.

Almost all of the balls are advertised as 40's balls or late 30's. With a substantial part of them advertised as 45' - '48, where you would expert a pretty consistent signature, but you see balls 'deemed auithentic' that look very much different.

Nobody has been consistently identifying these balls as forgeries previously. Thats why this is groundbreaking! a big deal! its a bombshell and i think the tpa's wish nobody would have done the work to go way back and catalogue these and show them. Let's hear their defense. If they are confident in all of these dozens of snow white balls being legit, let's see their study to back it up. they do studies on mantle, williams, dimaggio, let's see them do ruth!

Why is it monday morning quarterbacking when someone wants to get to the bottom of this? Unless people just want more and more of these to continue to be sold at auction with the precious LOA and auction loa, and precertification, and coa, and ... aw forget it.

Remember, these go for 50 k to 300k. Anyone questioning them are monday morning quarterbacks?

Only to the people who don't want any investigation and anybody to get to the bottom of this so the hobby can be cleaned up and this mess straightened out. What is Nash suppose to do with this information, just sit on it, and do nothing?

It's a ten part series, if part 2 is getting peoples hackles up, just think what part 10 will bring?

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