Hunt's Philly Show and David Hunt

basesareempty · #1 12-15-2011, 08:24 AM

I do not understand how he can be losing money on dealer fees and still be in business. He is charging almost 2x more than CSA for the same amount of space. To me it says that he is paying too much for the venue where he holding the show and needs to find a different place to hold the show that is more dealer friendly(collector friendly too for that matter)as well as more friendly to his bottom line. As far as protecting his "loyal dealers" if these dealers were having great shows and making lots of money with him they would not have sought out or felt the need to find another show to sell their wares. Even with the downturn in the economy there are still a lot of collector who would gladly come to these shows and spend money if dealers had their stuff clearly priced and priced at a reasonable amount. Many dealers are getting frustrated with EBay and their fees and collectors are tired of getting ripped off on EBay.I believe that shows have an oppurtunity to make a comeback because of this. I think that the Philadelphia area is big enough for both promoters but they need to work together to spread their schedules out so they are not so close together,it could work for both of them and be great for collectors. Also the autograph guests is a necessary evil these days I understand. The Philly show generally has Molly bring in her roster of Phillies,Eagles and Sixers players with a few other scattered in. Marco has a wide variety of Hall of Famers from various sports as well as local star players that appeal to the Philly collecter base. Dealers are an independent breed who do not want to be told where and for who they can set up with, David should realize this.

wonkaticket · #2 12-15-2011, 11:40 AM

So let me get this straight he�s protecting a dying and failing business from which he is losing money each and every time he sets up. Sorry but my meter is off the charts here.

If in fact this is true just walk and let the other sucker (Marco) lose his shirt. This tactic of barring and marking your territory is being done by someone who is making some profit and doesn�t want to be opened up to a thing called competition. Sort of like Wal-Mart banning a local Target because they are losing money each day they open.

Hey Leon your in the food biz as an entrepreneur wouldnt it be nice to get your customers and suppliers to not allow any other food joints near you because biz is slow?

As a vintage collector I�m done with this show. It has become nothing more than a social venture as the quality of merchandise and dealers has suffered. If I want social time I can get together with folks and not pay a cover charge to a so called profit losing individual or his company.

As a business man I have no sympathy for a company or individual who can�t manage his or her business and wants to dictate to other business owners their options for marketing their companies within a regional area. Think about this if in fact David is losing money here, why on earth would you as a dealer want to be tied to a sinking ship?

Takes a lot of nerve to tell folks how and where they will be allowed to market their companies and generate profits when you can�t even generate one yourself.

Cheers,

John McDaniel

tachyonbb · #3 12-15-2011, 01:42 PM

John, we used to use the same "BS" detector at our work. We discovered that we did not need the amplified version as there is enough BS around that amplification is not necessary. Even with the regular version it would burn out periodically. We replaced it with a "Telling the Truth" meter. It has lasted a long time as it activates on a very infrequent basis.

Jewish-collector · #4 12-15-2011, 01:48 PM

I went to the recent Philly show. Here is my take on it. There is a lot of construction around the facility. The show itself is on the bottom floor of the complex. You had to walk down a few sets of stairs and down a large hallway. So, that atmosphere does not help. They charge $8 per day admission, $21 for the weekend, all of which I thought was a little steep. Now, having said that, the show itself wasn't as bad as I was suspecting. There was a mixture of local Philly dealers as well as National dealers. Lots of Phillies cards & memorabilia. A few auction houses had booths (Goodwin, Mile High, Heritage, Huggins & Scott, Clean Sweep). All 3 grading companies (PSA, SGC, Beckett) were there. James Spence (JSA) was there for authenticating autographs. All in all, the show has lost a lot of its luster from the old Ft. Washington days, but it doesn't seem like it will be history just quite yet.

Alan

tedzan · #5 12-15-2011, 01:03 PM

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.

TED Z

danmckee · #6 12-15-2011, 01:30 PM

All very good points indeed. I sent David this link so maybe we can get a guest appearance from him. Though I can't blame him for not coming on here, I have left in pieces from this forum many times.

As I said, I do not have the answers, but it would be nice to have a show to set up at that was attended by a decent amount of people and was affordable for the dealer.

Leon · #7 12-15-2011, 01:38 PM

With all due respect to David I also think he is going about having his show be a success the wrong way. The way to succeed is to offer a better value/product, not tell people they can't play if they also play somewhere else.

Can anyone imagine if I said, well, if I see you posting on another chat board I won't let you post on this one? There would be a mass exodus and rightfully so. Lets all hope David changes his exclusionary practices...

slidekellyslide · #8 12-15-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.

TED Z

$600 just to set up???

tedzan · #9 12-15-2011, 03:24 PM

I'm being "generous" by stating $600.

I did the first 5 shows (of the 8) at Valley Forge, and it cost me $700 for a 10' x 10' booth each time I set up.

For comparison....the most Bob Schmierer charged us for the traditional Philly Show (Ft Washington and Reading, PA) was $350 for a similar size booth.

And, I had no qualms about paying the $350....since those shows were tremendous. As were the old Philly Shows at Willow Grove.

And, the best show I've had at Valley Forge was a fraction of the old Philly shows in terms of sales, trades, walk-ins, etc.

TED Z

autograf · #10 12-15-2011, 03:38 PM

I don't have a dog in the fight being stuck here in the Midwest but have been to the Philly show a couple times years ago when it was Ft. Washington and have been to a bunch of Hunt Auctions here in Louisville and in Philly area. $600-$700 for a 10x10 booth is STRONG dinero.....that's getting close to National type money.....okay, maybe less than that but much more than your run of the mill show. Plus the $8/day is pretty strong too. Guess it's Philly and I'm sure the venue is pricey. Unfortunately, ALL shows suffer as a result of economy, ebay, etc. There are NO decent shows in this area when there used to be TONS of shows. I used to to 6-8 shows a year and quit in 1995. Coincidentally, that was about the same time ebay popped up. As they've grown the shows have declined a similar amount. I'm not sure at $700 for a 10x10 booth at $8/day I could see someone losing money on a show if they had a decent amount of dealers and attendees but those autograph guests can suck the profits right out of a show too depending on ticket sales. Anyway, part of all of it is the ever-changing market and how we buy/sell collectibles. The exclusionary thing is just a little noggin-scratching though. As a promoter, I could see they'd want to protect their turf, even though they bought their turf a couple years ago after someone had run it successfully for many many years. At least you all have shows up there to have to gripe about! Hopefully it all works out one way or the other......

jbsports33 · #11 12-15-2011, 03:48 PM

Ted,

350.00 is about what we pay for the Boston show for one space (we get two), we stopped traveling outside of New England because the cost of travel and table fees like Valley Forge forced us to stay closer to home. We setup at Reading and Ft Washington with no issues and the room rates seemed a bit better as well. I would like to start traveling back down to PA and other surrounding states, but the cost is too much. Maybe it will get better, so I can see your great selection of T206s again.

Jimmy

prewarsports · #12 12-15-2011, 04:21 PM

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

Jaybird · #13 12-15-2011, 04:40 PM

I agree that the autograph guests aren't pulling people towards the vintage cards. Maybe they come by a table and see a $5 card that "looks neat" and buy it, but I wouldn't think that's the same guy buying a $500 Collins McCarthy card.

I'd prefer a smaller show with more vintage dealers and people that know when you come there, that's what you'll get. I'd be extremely loyal to a show like that and think a lot of other people would as well if you knew you were going to see great dealers and an interesting assortment of vintage.

Also, as I've said before, who needs Sunday at a show? Let's save everyone time and money and bag Sunday and it'll be cheaper for everyone.

For Hunt, I think he caters to both groups which is why he does the autographs. Those people bid in his auctions as do the purely vintage collectors. So, he needs to do both. But, Rhys makes a good point, why should the vintage dealers be subsidizing the autograph guests if the return isn't likely to come from those same guests?

wonkaticket · #14 12-15-2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

100% agree, I spend a fair amount on cards and never once gone to a show to get an autograph or been drawn to a show for autographs.

John

Jewish-collector · #15 12-15-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

I, too, agree. There are collectors for every part of the sports card & memorabilia hobby. There are a bunch of collectors only into the shiny stuff. Some only into autographs. Some only into game-worn memorabilia. So on and so forth. So, it depends on what your focus is. Here it's vintage baseball cards.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
OT- Larry David goes to a baseball card show	RichardSimon	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	8	08-08-2010 10:24 PM
Show Us Your Highlanders/Yankees cards	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	32	10-01-2008 11:04 PM
1913 New York Yankees Slide Show for David A	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	4	07-25-2007 05:37 PM
Boston Shriner's Card Show	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	23	11-10-2005 03:15 PM
Hollywood Park Show Report	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	14	09-17-2004 01:03 PM