Slabbing old paper

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Although I did have a number of baseball guide book pages encapsulated a little while back, I have come to realize that these pages are better left alone in their original form as part of the guide and the guide books themselves make better collectibles. Of course, the graded pieces are much better for display and since Beckett will not encapsulate cut-outs from these guides but instead full-pages only, I am okay with those collectors that prefer to go that route as Beckett clearly labels these items as such.

Thanks for saying this. Unfortunately, there are so many people willing to buy pictures out of these guides, that they will be chopped up until there isn't a single one left that is not in a private collection. The newest thing is for the seller to state in his auction that the pages were "removed from a damaged guide." This is not always true - I followed his purchase/chop-jobs for a while, and he buys anything he can get cheap, and then chops it up. He doesn't slab them, but instead offers them in small collections of related photos from different years - this is very appealing to collectors, and lucrative to him, but a horrible idea in my opinion.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Hi,

There is nothing wrong with slabbing a woodcut or a portion of the paper(if one wants to collect that).
However, if it is only a portion of the paper, then the value of it takes a big hit.

Take this John L Sullivan Woodcut from the Police Gazette. It is his first championship victory, and it is a double page centerfold.

As part of the complete paper it is much more valuable. If I were to sell just the double page centerfold(or slab it), it would still have value, but not nearly as much as the entire paper.

If I were to cut one of the individual photos out of this, then I basically just destroyed all the value. I hate to see anything cut up. Even worse if people are being dishonest about it!

[Runscott]

Your point about woodcuts are good ones, as are the ones posted previously.

I have mixed feelings about the woodcuts - on the one hand, I sort of think that at the time these newspapers were created, the woodcuts were inserted intentionally to have appeal as items to be removed and tacked to the wall.

On the other hand, it's a different story 130 years later. I had all of the Harper's woodcuts at one time - a few as individual copies, but mostly intact in the complete newspaper. I would never have considered removing any of them - if I had wanted to frame one on the wall, I would have bought a copy that was already removed. A great example is the Buck Ewing - my Harpers that contained this one was in near mint condition with a special original brown cover. Ripping Buck out of the middle would have shown total disrespect for a historical item that simply can't be replaced. The value to the collector or seller, in my opinion, is irrelevant.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I for one can attest to the fact that a complete item, newspaper, guide, etc. is much more valuable and, more importantly, much more collectible if it is intact rather than having an individual piece removed from it. It took me a while but I have learned the hard way when atempting to sell these types of things. Typically, the larger woodcuts, like half-page to full-page do not sufer too much in value but smaller pieces are especially hurt. One exception might be the New York Clipper woodcuts from 1879-80 which Lew Lipset had catalogued years ago and are very rare to find intact with the player bios still attached under the image. IMHO these are very much undervalued and represent the earliest catalogued collectibles for several players including a half-dozen HOF'ers.

Unfortunatley, for display purposes, this often does not work out and that's probably why newspaper collectibles in general do not have a major collector base as compared to cards, photos, etc.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I for one can attest to the fact that a complete item, newspaper, guide, etc. is much more valuable and, more importantly, much more collectible if it is intact rather than having an individual piece removed from it. It took me a while but I have learned the hard way when atempting to sell these types of things. Typically, the larger woodcuts, like half-page to full-page do not sufer too much in value but smaller pieces are especially hurt. One exception might be the New York Clipper woodcuts from 1879-80 which Lew Lipset had catalogued years ago and are very rare to find intact with the player bios still attached under the image. IMHO these are very much undervalued and represent the earliest catalogued collectibles for several players including a half-dozen HOF'ers.

Unfortunatley, for display purposes, this often does not work out and that's probably why newspaper collectibles in general do not have a major collector base as compared to cards, photos, etc.

Did you read yesterday where a Tuna (one fish) sold for $763,000? There used to be plenty of large tuna, but they were overfished. Even though they can be replenished (won't be, but could be), the price is now outrageous.

These woodcuts cannot be replenished. There are plenty now, but every time one gets chopped up, there's one less. Some day after we're long gone, there will only be a few that aren't in private collections. Those will be worth a fortune. That's just the way it works - inevitable. We're basically destroying the past for the present, screwing the future. But we'll be dead then, so who cares? <=== irresponsible attitude.

[Exhibitman]

The AAA guy was selling them as graded cards in the cards category. A blatant effort to defraud unwitting buyers.

I see nothing wrong with cutting an image out of an old Harpers and having it slabbed accurately labeled as such. If someone enjoys having that, fine. Perhaps they cannot afford a $10,000 N card and find collecting a woodcut to be a nice alternative. I wouldn't criticize a collector for making that decision.

Value is another matter entirely. It may be more valuable as a whole issue of Police Gazette or Harpers stored in a cabinet somewhere, but if the collector who owns it is happier with a cut in a tomb, that's his choice. Sometimes value doesn't matter to a collector who wants to enjoy his collection.

I think we sometimes forget that we aren't curators of a museum in charge of preserving someone else's entrusted materials. We are collectors of paper mass market products and childrens toys. I would not want to have someone tell me how to play with my toys, so I won't criticize someone who wants a 19th century woodcut in a slab.

[slidekellyslide]

There is a guy selling cutouts of the team photos from the Reach and Spalding guides, but he is not misrepresenting them like the guy from Hawaii was doing by encapsulating and grading them. I've bought a handful of them over the past few years just because I'd like a period item from every year of the early Lincoln clubs. I was also able to pick up three Nebraska Indians cutouts that had the names of the players listed which has been very helpful to me in identifying some players in other photos I have.