Questions about things that have been bugging me

barrysloate · #1 01-10-2012, 06:03 AM

That's interesting Rhett. The book I got the fifty cents price from was Base Ball and Base Ball Players by Elwood Roff, a pretty rare book published in 1912. Maybe by 1871 they were remaindered, having already used up their market interest. Possibly a hot item in 1870, but yesterday's papers by 1871.

benjulmag · #2 01-10-2012, 09:37 AM

I think likely the P&S cards appeared before 1870.

For one, the Atlantics card says "1868" on it. If the card first appeared in 1870, why issue the 1868 team as opposed to the 1869 or 1870 team? The composition of the team had changed over that period, and inasmuch as the cards were issued to promote P&S products, one would expect the merchant would want the cards to depict the current team so as to maximize customer interest in the cards.

Second, as was discussed in a previous thread, likely there were separate printings of the Red Stockings card, as reflected in (1) the ink color used (the colored inks suggesting an 1870 issuance (Red Stockings --red, Athletics -- blue, Mutuals -- green)) , (2) the ad on the verso (the ice skate ad suggesting a winter 1869-70 issuance), and (3) the contrast of the photo (the cards with the red ink have consistently worse contrast than the black-ink cards, suggesting an end-of-negative-run (i.e., 1870) printing).

GaryPassamonte · #3 01-10-2012, 09:58 AM

I keep wondering why the P & S trade cards were not advertised for sale in catalogs before 1871. Did P & S start with the 1869 Red Stockings CdVs as a giveaway? Did these CdVs gradually evolve into the trade cards? Some Red Stocking CdVs have P & S advertising and some don't. Were the blank backed or team lineup on reverse Red's CdVs giveaways, while the Red's CdVs with P & S advertising the precursors to the trade cards?
Another interesting unrelated observation is that only the Red Stockings and the Athletics from the P & S series come in CdV form. Given the popularity of the other teams pictured on P & S trade cards, it's perplexing that no CdVs exist with those images.

Corey- That is an interesting point regarding the Atlantics. Since they had recently defeated the Red Stocking in 1870, it seems an image of that famous team would be issued by P & S to capitalize on the local team's great victory. Does an image of the Atlantics exist that is later than the 1868 version? It's possible there was no later image of the Atlantics.

barrysloate · #4 01-10-2012, 10:07 AM

Corey- you certainly may be correct that the Atlantics were issued in 1868, and we have nothing to prove otherwise. But it is possible that P & S issued the five cards simultaneously, as a series of five key teams of the era. The 1870 Atlantics were not a championship team, while the 1868 of course were. Now we have no proof of this either, just trying to come up with a reason why they might have done it. It's pure speculation. But we really don't know anything about how these cards originated. Everything with regard to origin we've been forced to guess.

As to the question as why the Red Stockings were issued with two different ad backs, there is no doubt they were the most popular team and the one most requested. They easily could have run out of a first printing and been forced to reissue it. With the change of seasons, they would have come up with an ad for cold weather sports.

novakjr · #5 01-10-2012, 10:20 AM

Personally, I believe the Peck & Snyder's weren't released simultaneously. They probably came out in order of their dates. The Atlantics in 1868, Cincinnati in '69, so on and so on...However, when it comes to the 1971 catalog listing them all together, it's probable that the same ones were released for a number of years. Possibly given out at games and such for advertising, but also made available for purchase as a whole in '71 through the catalog(possibly overstock or a second printing)...Why waste money on new photo's when you've still got perfectly good old ones?

benjulmag · #6 01-10-2012, 10:30 AM

Gary,

I'm not aware of an image of the Atlantics that is post 1868 though that hardly means one was not issued and has not yet been discovered. All these 1860's baseball Cdvs are extraordinarily rare and likely there are a good many that were issued but have not yet been uncovered (e.g., Stars, Eckfords, Olympics, etc.).

One P&S we have neglected to mention is the 1868 Lowells. I have never seen an original, though I do have (somewhere) a photocopy. That card, depicting the 1868 team, lends further support for 1868 issuances.

Baseball Rarities · #7 01-10-2012, 10:46 AM

FWIW, there are cdv's that are marked "Sample Copy" on the reverse. These state that bulk quantities were available for $.75/dozen or $5.00/100.

These "Sample" copies have team's line up on the reverse along with an advertisement for Peck and Snyder. I assume that the bulk cards that were available had just Cincinnati's line up on the reverse and no advertsing.

I think that we can definitively date the cdv's with the line ups on the reverse to 1869 as the advertsiement of a third style clearly advertises the 1869 version of Chadwick's book.

I have added images of the three different backs that I mentioned above.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Bat questions	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	9	12-27-2008 05:52 PM
Vintage Cap questions	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	2	11-07-2007 12:51 PM
Do you have questions for SCDA?	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	42	02-14-2005 02:00 PM
A few Slabbing questions few of you want to see answered:	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	17	01-01-2005 11:49 AM
Leland's Questions...	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	9	11-23-2004 07:35 PM