POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

Casey,
I never meant to denigrate your experience, I wanted to show how it was different than mine.
How long has reputable diamond authentication been in the diamond business?
Has it led to non reputable authentication?
TPA in the autograph business has been around for about 10 years. The autograph business existed pretty well, obviously there were some problems, for about 100 years before TPA.
What I primarily object to is the buy the cert mentality over buy the autograph. The TPA do not bat 100%, they try to make it appear that they do, but we all know they do not.
The stories are going to continue to come out about things they have done and still do. These stories will change more collectors perceptions of the TPA companies.
This has been a good discourse and I am glad I started this thread.

[Caseyatbat]

Yes I like the thread as well! There is no question it is a hot topic that is not going to go away anytime soon. Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.

Also you mentioned this industry has survived for a long time without TPA's up until recently. I think that makes sense. Autograph forgeries were not that common until the early 90's. Of course there were some before, but since the 90's it has been a large-scale problem that only seems to be getting worse. And the forgeries never really go away either, we still have all of the original forgeries floating around the market as well as all of the newer forgeries as well being pumped out every day. They just keep piling up in the market. So I believe now more than ever TPA's are needed. And yes they are wrong from time to time, but in my experiences they are correct 99% of the time. Which are pretty good odds considering they are human.

[HRBAKER]

Casey,
I am enjoying this discussion as well. One conclusion that I have drawn and that I think is readily apparent is that the marketing efforts of these companies have been extremely successful. I have a question for you. If all these companies are doing is offering a non-interested third party "opinion" about whether a signature is genuine, why is their opinion more expensive the more valuable the autograph is? Or am I wrong about that? Thanks.

If all they are offering is an opinion then it seems that they are not incurring any risk associated with a guarantee.

[travrosty]

Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.



This is the biggest fallacy out there, it is simply not true. If it kills you to shovel thousands to TPA's, then don't do it. I don't do it, I sell just fine. So do lots of my friends. You will just get more serious bidders who look for quality items and know what they want and know a good autograph when they see one, rather than some guys who just buy the cert. The autographs still sell and for basically the same amount of money.

I have sold autographs that normally go for 420 dollars with tpa cert, for 400 without one, and the cert would have cost 75 dollars, so if I would have got the cert, I lose 55 dollars, but I can make it up in volume I guess.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, To answer your question, I don't believe they charge more for the value of an autograph. It is a pretty flat rate. An example would be 150 dollars for any team signed baseball with 18 or more signatures. But if the ball has big names such as Ruth, Gehrig etc. I believe they charge 250 dollars for the team ball. So more in that aspect I guess.

One of the problems with the price is I think it is too much of a flat rate. For instance a Mantle autograph is 100 dollars with PSA. That may be acceptable because the ball is going to sell for 500 dollars. But they also charge 100 dollars for a Mantle signed 8x10 photo which is horrible, authentic ones are selling for only 150 dollars on ebay even with the TPA full letter. So how is it possible they can charge 100 dollars to authenticate an item that is only selling for 150 dollars? In that aspect I wish it did actually fluctuate with the value of the item because maybe in this case to authenticate a Mantle 8x10 would only be about 25 dollars.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year.

Casey,

I'm sure you probably already know this with the volume that you indicate that you do, but if you are giving PSA/DNA that much business, you shouldn't be paying full price. You might be getting discounts already, I have no way of knowing, but if not, just ask for them and it will save you some coin.

JSA will discount as well (not as aggressive as PSA/DNA though from my experience)

Take care,

Mike

[drc]

Okay. I stopped by my parents and my 76 year old dad was doing a jigsaw puzzle. He's never collected or sold. I asked him the big question of if a dealer sold an autograph that was given an LOA from some 'big authentication company,' and the autograph turned out to be a a forgery, who pays the refund? He said the dealer should pay, but he should in turn get some money from the authentication company.

[Caseyatbat]

Hello Mike, Thank You very much for the advice. I do have the discount already. Although I wish it was more. But your right, PSA is a little more aggressive in this sense. I was surprised to see it wasn't the other way around! Thanks Mike.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

While this analogy seems sound on first glance, there is one sight difference between diamonds and autographs (I think) :

With a diamond, (I assume) there is a scientific way to determine if it is real, or fake. If my assumption is correct, the authenticator is dealing in facts.

With an autograph, we are dealing with opinions of authenticity, not facts. We can determine if the items involved in the autograph (paper, ink, pen style, angle of writing, pressures, etc) fit the usual known attributes, but we can not determine with absolute certainty whether (as an example) Walter Johnson signed his name to an item, and that he didn't have Joe Jackson sign for him.

Or am I missing something?
Doug

[drc]

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

I would certainly hope they would .

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

Casey - points well taken but also some disagreed with and a couple of TPA stories.
It is not mandatory for the consignor to consign an item with a TPA cert,the auction house is responsible for the TPA auction cert (don't get me started on auction certs and that scam).
I have many customers who have been buying from me for many, many years.
They don't bother spending the money, even on high ticket items, on TPA.
I had a $15 Burgess Meredith (the actor) autograph returned once that I sold on ebay. It came from one of the best in person collections I ever bought. The buyer admitted to me he knew it was good but he was a dealer and he could not resell it without TPA.
I had two rejections of Babe Ruth in person autographs from PSA. One was then sent by my customer, to Lelands, (I would take their authentication over any TPA) who immediately thanked him for the consignment, and sold it. The other one came from the same collection and the dealer I sold it to would not return it to me because he too knew it was good despite having it rejected by PSA. He sent it to them for the reasons you bring out in your post (marketing) but knew it was good and kept it, despite their rejection.
The next few stories to come out from Halls of Shame are going to be eye popping and will dissuade many who are on the fence about TPA's.

[drc]

How about this working theory. PSA and JSA are 85 percent correct (example percentage, don't take the number too seriously), which means a PSA letter says there's a 85% chance the item is authentic. If potential buyers say a LOA on eBay as saying there was an 85% chance, and not 100% guarantee, the autograph is authentic, they'd say "That LOA gives good odds, but I should look into thing further to bridge the gap." Looking into it further may include getting other opinions, educating themselves, looking at who is the seller and perhaps even spend accordingly less money. They will also realize that if they go strictly by LOAs, they will be buying fakes from time to time, because 85% isn't 100%. The significance will sink in further when they realize the TPA's aren't 100% accurate and don't give refunds for the autographs.