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Interesting Story
OK, just so everyone knows, I am not promoting any site here or any other agenda, I just thought this was an interesting read about the alphbet gang :
http://www.autographalert.com/psadnacritique.pdf Thoughts?? |
#2
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Very interesting article, thanks for posting.
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#3
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Very interesting and scary about the laser copies. But if the writer is so questioning of letters of authenticity, why does he so blindly believe the letters about the Kobe and Favre pieces being signed before eyewitnesses? How do we know that those letters are true?
Greg |
#4
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This is kind of why I try to stay away from autographed items, for the most part. With all the fakes and new technology...its just a crapshoot anymore
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#5
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It is not new technology here.
I would assume the alphabet guys were sent items, in plastic sheets, and did not even bother to remove them for a real examination. Since they were copy photos of real autographed photos they just slapped on a COA with no examination. This was not new technology, this was just a copy photo made from an original autographed photo. This story was originally posted on a now defunct website some time ago. The site had the word gavel in it but I don't remember the full name of it. There was much speculation at the time about the true ownership of the site but that has never been established. The same test was applied to me. I received five photographs, each one in a plastic sheet. I removed the photos from the sheets and it was then apparent that two of them were copy photos of real autographed photos. I wrote out two letters of rejection for those and three COA's for the real ones. A few weeks later I received one more copy photo from the same person. I removed it from its plastic sheet and once again it was apparent that it was a copy photo. Once again I wrote out a rejection letter. Some time later, I found the gavel website and read the story. I then posted my experience on my website, outlining the entire story. I had originally thought that the person who sent these to me had just been scammed. Anytime these people want to pay me over $400 and run a test to see if I am doing my job, well feel free to go ahead and do it. I feel I can make an educated guess as to who was behind this but since it is only a guess I won't post any names here.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 07:55 AM. |
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Just shows how little time they spend on authenticating the items. With all the technology they have wouldn't you think they'd know if it was a laser print?
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#7
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If they don't bother to take it out of the plastic sheet that it came in, then they won't know that it is a laser print. They are copy photos of authentically autographed photos, so just taking a quick glance will lead them to a conclusion that it is authentically signed. Taking it out of the sheet should make you immediately suspicious, then holding it under a light will clinch your suspicions.
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 08:20 AM. |
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intresting story only for one reason
And the reason is as they say "Its All About The Benjamins"
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#9
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PSA & JSA should pass on authenticating anything already in a frame. It appears that the desire to not tamper with the frame caused them to miss on the laser prints.
And they offered their opinion on the other two autos, which is what they were paid to do. |
#10
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I understand this wasn't new technology. I guess what I meant to say was that its just like counterfeiting money...crooks will always be upgrading their technology and improve their products to try to screw people. In many instances it's getting harder and harder to spot fakes and it certainly doesn't help when the "pros" are taking your hard earned money and authenticating fakes to add to the dilemma.
Now that this has become much more of a big business since the 70s, I don't even want to know how many fakes have been authenticated over the years. The market is over-saturated with fakes big time. There is no end game, thats why I think it's wise to stay away from autographed items unless you're HIGHLY experienced. |
#11
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Quote:
Where does it say in that story that all the items were in a frame?? Maybe I missed that part?? The Mantle-DiMaggio was not in a frame. The Harry Truman was not in a frame. The Bryant and Favre signatures were not in frames. The Favre came from Favre's own company and the alphabet guys turned it down. The Bryant came from UD and the alphabet guys turned it down. I had thought, incorrectly it seems, that PSA and JSA did not authenticate framed items. As far as I am concerned an authenticator should never examine a framed item. I have always insisted that the client remove the item from the frame before submitting it to me.
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#12
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Quote:
One of the people who answered my post to place their name on my mailing list wrote to me and said that every item in his collection came from Jim Stinson,except for one,which came from Rich Albersheim. He has a very strong chance of having a completely authentic collection.
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#13
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Quote:
Would you say at a minimum based on what you are paying for an authentication, you would expect an 8x10 to be pulled from the sheet and given at least a cursory, uncovered examination?
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." |
#14
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story
Richard,
Just curious if you were buying an item from "The Experts" Which ones would You trust. List please. |
#15
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+1
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#16
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Quote:
One more time Jim Stinson, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Rich Albersheim, Kevin Keating, Phil Marks, Danny Cariseo and for auction houses Lelands, the only major sports auction house I know of that does not use TPA. For non sports autographs Alexander Autographs is an outstanding auction house that does not use TPA and offers some amazing items. I am sure there are other good dealers out there that I have not mentioned but I have known these guys for a long time and respect their knowledge and integrity. And for the purposes of full disclosure - some of them do buy from me and I have bought from some of them.
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 03:59 PM. |
#17
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Quote:
directly from the jsa facebook page. ------------------------------------ Hi I am going to the Tri-Star Show in Houston in January and I have 2 autographed MJ framed jersey with autographs. Can you still authenticate it even though it's mounted and framed. Thanks Michael Riley LikeUnlike · · October 26, 2011 at 7:27pm · James Spence Authentication Hi Michael, Yes, we will be able to authenticate your items through the frame. The fee on your Michael Jordan jerseys are $100 each. We look forward to seeing you at the next Houston show --------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Ja...363236?sk=wall this is an oct. 27 post, you might have to go to older posts a couple of times to see it. they obviously authenticate through the frame as they admit it! It's totally inadequate in my opinion to do that. they are getting paid to detect preprint, etc. that only a close-up inspection without anything in the way can accomplish. They have also authenticated through the ball holder, a babe ruth autograph. not cool. |
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“Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, JSA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by JSA on any submission.”
“Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, PSADNA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by PSADNA on any submission.” --Nuf Ced...
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#19
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Sounds to me like you're paying for a GUESS and a nice little sticker.
Not worth the $ |
#20
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Quote:
There was a time, pre PSA/DNA and JSA, that Jimmy Spence the dealer was considered to be in that same company you list here. If you were asked the same question then, would he have been on your list? |
#21
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Quote:
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#22
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Quote:
I am recommending dealers for the here and now.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#23
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Go back in time? That's just silly. You clearly have strong opinions. I'm just curious about the evolution of such opinions.
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#24
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Like I said my recommendations are for the here and now.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#25
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Predictable
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#26
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Quite.
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#27
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Speaking for myself only, if you can earn your way on someone's list, you can earn your way off.
If Spence was on anybody's list back then, but wouldn't be on the list now, so what? He would earn that distinction. There's no messenger to blame. Don't blame anyone for holding an authenticator responsible for their authentications. Only the authenticator deserves to be held accountable. Last edited by travrosty; 01-29-2012 at 05:22 PM. |
#28
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I noticed how active you have been in all these threads Phil.
You have not posted in almost a month and most of your posts are for the purposes of selling autographs. Get active, tell us what you think. Nobody here knows your opinions Phil, be they 12 years old or 1 day old. At least I posted a list of dealers I think are trustworthy. How about you posting one. You have bought from me,, who would you recommend?
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 05:39 PM. |
#29
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I believe Richard answered your question twice. Why the hassle?
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#30
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It is amazing what technology has done to the autograph hobby. I know a lot of people on this board are not into autographs but I thought that I would share with you a new trend. For autograph collectors it is very difficult to prepare for any chance encounter with an athlete or celebrity. It is impossible to always have a photo or a card of a specific person in case you get a chance to get a signature. You never know who you will bump into but technology that is no longer an issue.
Using a certain type of photo paper, a blue sharpie and a photo printer anything is possible. Once an athlete / celebrity has signed the photo paper in a blue sharpie the collector or dealer can then go and print a photo on the paper and the signature comes out perfect (assuming that it is not on a dark are of the photo that is being printed). The ink in the printer does not effect the ink of the blue sharpie. I did not believe this until I saw it done first hand. Imagine this scenario, someone gets Willie Mays to sign the proper photo paper in blue sharpie, they could later print his obituary (when he passes away) onto the paper and you would have an authentic signed obituary. Weird to think that could happen. |
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Quote:
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." |
#32
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Quote:
I can see this coming to card shows. The promoters and players charge more for "premium" items,, how much will they now charge for signing this special photo paper?
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#33
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Quote:
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#34
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Richard. I could be wrong here, but I believe printers don't actually print white. So if you were to play around finding the right photo for the placement of your signature it could technically work. I'm not thinking that it would be all that appealing to have ink cover any of the signature at all though.
Another option would be a temporary cover for the signature, to be removed after printing. It would create a natural frame for the signature within the photo. Last edited by novakjr; 01-29-2012 at 06:06 PM. |
#35
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Quote:
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#36
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Quote:
It is too easy to slip through a laser printed autograph and fool an authenticator as that story has proven. I am very surprised to have found out that the alphabets will authenticate items in a frame. I have probably lost business because I have had people write to me and state that they have framed items to authenticate and ask me if I can do it. When I say no, I rarely hear from them again, though once in a while someone will say they have taken it out of the frame and will send it to me for an examination. And if someone sends me something in a plastic sheet, I do make the herculean effort to remove it from the sheet before starting my examination.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#37
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You are absolutely correct. Nobody who deals or collects is perfect, mistakes are made.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 06:28 PM. |
#38
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Quote:
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#39
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Quote:
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#40
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Is it actual glossy photo paper or matte finish paper?
It almost sounds like something out of the twilight zone.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 06:56 PM. |
#41
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Quote:
Richard responded twice. However . . . stating that he elects not to answer the question is not in fact answering it. I wasn't aware that asking a question constitutes a "hassle". Richard's a big boy. I'm sure he can speak for himself. But thanks for your input. Quote:
I have bought from everyone you mentioned and I'm pretty sure you are aware that I have bought from you as well (multiple times in fact). My question had nothing to do with disparaging you or questioning whether you are a trustworthy dealer. Rich, I don't have a dog in this fight. Its just that if you are going to put yourself out there as much as you do, you are bound to elicit questions. I simply had a question. A question I'm sure others would like to hear the answer to as well. Last edited by PhilNap; 01-29-2012 at 07:23 PM. |
#42
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Quote:
I have been told several times that the PU warned them against signing anything blank because of potential "identity theft" issues.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." |
#43
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Why does it matter? Most of them are already using stolen identities
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#44
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Quote:
I don't usually respond to lurkers who use the board to sell and write nothing of value.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-29-2012 at 08:20 PM. |
#45
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Quote:
Several active posters? Maybe you should start a poll. You seem to be into them lately. If you don't want to answer, dont answer. Don't use the excuse that the source of the question isn't active enough for you. I don't claim to be important here but maybe you should check your ego with a condescending response like that. Last edited by PhilNap; 01-29-2012 at 09:18 PM. |
#46
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Quote:
LIKE Guess someone lost a customer. This is something else.... Ben Weingarten
__________________
[I]"When you photograph people in colour you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in B&W, you photograph their souls." ~Ted Grant Www.weingartensvintage.com https://www.facebook.com/WeingartensVintage http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...ben-weingarten ALWAYS BUYING BABE RUTH RED SOX TYPE 1 PHOTOGRAPHS--->To add to my collection Last edited by Forever Young; 02-11-2012 at 12:03 PM. |
#47
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Quote:
Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 01-30-2012 at 07:33 AM. |
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Ok Chris maybe its me. It was a Yes or No question so perhaps you can interpret the answer that he gave. "Yes" Spence would have been on his list 12 years ago or "NO" he would not have been? I will hold my follow up question pending your answer.
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#49
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#50
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It's not an inquisition, Lance. It's someone who's noticed that Richard plays his cards very close to his vest. He'll titillate you with hints of his vast knowledge, but when directly questioned on it, will always have some excuse as to why he'd rather not say.
(And then, of course, his little lap dog will start nipping at the questioner's heels.) Last edited by David Atkatz; 01-30-2012 at 03:43 PM. |
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