Ethics question regarding buying at auctions...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by pclpads

If you're doing this w/ a relative, ok. But, if you're approaching basically a stranger and essentially saying, "I'd appreicate it if you didn't bid on this lot becuz I want it more than you do," that's not a question of ethics, but arrogance. Bad form!

Yeah, Im more in the middle with guys Ive bought and sold cards with for about a year now. Not a relative, but also not a stranger. The stranger seems like it would fall into that "illegal" category...definitely bad form.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Yeah, Im more in the middle with guys Ive bought and sold cards with for about a year now. Not a relative, but also not a stranger. The stranger seems like it would fall into that "illegal" category...definitely bad form.

Okay, I'll risk getting a reaming....If I know someone on the board collects a rare item, I know he is willing to 'over-spend' for it, and I see such an item come up in a major auction....I have a few choices: 1) I hope he doesn't see it 2) I assume he sees it and I can either give up immediately and alert him to the item, or 3) I can try to outbid him, knowing one of us will pay way above market value, or 4) I contact him in advance and try to come to some sort of arrangement so that the bidding doesn't get out of hand, or 5) he contacts me and I ignore him or brush him off.

If I choose option 4, is that wrong? Personally, I would never do it, but I HAVE had other collectors approach me (option 5), trying to figure out where I stand on a particular item. I generally try to tactfully brush them off.

[prewarsports]

I do this sometimes and it is not collusion because you cant control the other 100 million people on ebay, but it is a nice gesture between friends in a small collecting niche and even if you get outbid or the price goes for what it normally would anyways, at least you know you and your buddies have each others collecting interests in mind.

To me it is no different than seeing a T206 that is underpriced at a show, but that you might already have but know a friend of yours needs. Instead of buying it and raising the price to your friend, you alert your firend to let them buy it and save them some money. Maybe apples and Oranges but thats how I see it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Okay, I'll risk getting a reaming....If I know someone on the board collects a rare item, I know he is willing to 'over-spend' for it, and I see such an item come up in a major auction....I have a few choices: 1) I hope he doesn't see it 2) I assume he sees it and I can either give up immediately and alert him to the item, or 3) I can try to outbid him, knowing one of us will pay way above market value, or 4) I contact him in advance and try to come to some sort of arrangement so that the bidding doesn't get out of hand, or 5) he contacts me and I ignore him or brush him off.

If I choose option 4, is that wrong? Personally, I would never do it, but I HAVE had other collectors approach me (option 5), trying to figure out where I stand on a particular item. I generally try to tactfully brush them off.

Situation 1 - ok
situation 2 - Actaully a nice thing to do.
situation 3 - ok
situation 4 - Very not ok. See below.
Situation 5 - Hard to tell. I've asked a friend about an item I was interested in and found out how much he'd already bid. Out of my league so I didn't bother bidding, but not as an arrangement, just something I did. I've been asked and have openly told friends my max bid or what I thought of an item. What they decide to do is up to them.

The stuff about how #4 can go very wrong- Unlikely anyone would pursue it on an occasional cheap item, but it still shouldn't be done.

http://www.jamesmccusker.com/news/article.cfm?id=234

http://www.ag.ny.gov/media_center/20...apr21a_04.html

Steve B

[Jantz]

Scott - Thank you for the comments. I appreciate that.

I see nothing wrong with giving a fellow board member a "heads up" about a certain card. No need to get into a bidding war with a friend.

In the past, I have contacted other board members quite frequently, but not always. I can't let Johnny get all those freak T206s! Either way, most of the board members I've contacted are strong bidders and so am I if we want the card for our collection. So I can't imagine the sellers being to unhappy about about the final price.

Does communication between perspective buyers affect a card's final price? I'm sure it does. Sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. In the end, there are alot of other factors involved.



Jantz

[murcerfan]

One of my favorite hobby moments was back a bunch of years when I joined forces with another (asshat and a half) collector on a near set of D359's. I backed off bidding allowing other person to win, as we had a verbal agreement to split up the lot, as niether needed all the cards.
The lot went for a few grand less than what either of us was willing to top out at...I was thrilled.
Next day the other guy turns around and says he needs to double the price/cost of the cards I thought were coming my way. He said he had realized what a great deal he was getting andf went ahead and bid aggressively on a few other lots and won them, so now he needed me to help him cover those costs.
I almost got in my truck and drove down to Poughkeepsie to pound him flat.

....your results may differ.

[Wymers Auction]

Speaking from an auctioneer's standpoint there are no friends at an auction!!! That is the ideal situation for us sister against sister and brother against brother tooth and nail and believe me this happens. We understand the feeling of not bidding up friends and family, but to engage in a ring and try to repress the prices of an auction is illegal it is not a gray area at all.

[Wymers Auction]

I also find it funny that there is so much talk about auction house ethics on here, but when it comes to being a bidder anything goes. Funny double standard.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Speaking from an auctioneer's standpoint there are no friends at an auction!!! That is the ideal situation for us sister against sister and brother against brother tooth and nail and believe me this happens. We understand the feeling of not bidding up friends and family, but to engage in a ring and try to repress the prices of an auction is illegal it is not a gray area at all.

Sometimes when collectors don't communicate it hurts the final sale price for the seller/auction house too.

It happened last week on Ebay.



Jantz

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Speaking from an auctioneer's standpoint there are no friends at an auction!!! That is the ideal situation for us sister against sister and brother against brother tooth and nail and believe me this happens. We understand the feeling of not bidding up friends and family, but to engage in a ring and try to repress the prices of an auction is illegal it is not a gray area at all.

James- I think you are missing the point. I understand collusion and price-fixing, etc. but the following real example illustrates the concept of "apples and oranges" in discussing collectors getting together to buy an auction lot. 8 collectors who would all like between 1 (for a type) and 2-5 cards (for set collectors) decide to pool resources on bidding on a caramel set containing 30 cards. On of the collectors is designated as the bidder, the others watch and keep their fingers crossed. None of the 8 collectors would be able to afford the mid to high grade set but by pooling their resources, "they" become a serious and tenacious bidder. During the final hour of bidding, "they" bid 4 or 5 times, driving the bid amount up and up. Had it not been for the collective bidding, the lot would have sold to another bidder, also tenacious, for quite a bit less. The consignor profited, the auction house profited, the bidders profited because the cards were seldom seen for sale in their condition and they were able to secure cards they needed. The 8 card collectors who communicated about the cards with each other formed bonds of friendship which lasted long after the auction ended and several have traded or sold cards to each other.
The goal was not to depress or "fix" the final price, the goal was to secure cards.
Apples and oranges....