Impossible Ty Cobb autographed ball passed by JSA and PSA

[thetruthisoutthere]

I am hoping that Travis can post a photo of the PSA and JSA "Auction LOA." Please show it to me and the rest of the members here.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

interested to know if Heritage is gonna make a statement about this. I agree spot on with you Travis, good analysis.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I am hoping that Travis can post a photo of the PSA and JSA "Auction LOA." Please show it to me and the rest of the members here.

No worries... I'm sure Travis and Nash will issue corrections and apologies to PSA and JSA if it is confirmed that it was a Heritage error.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

No worries... I'm sure Travis and Nash will issue corrections and apologies to PSA and JSA if it is confirmed that it was a Heritage error.

Steve,

they have been issuing these auction loa's "ahead of time" for months and months. When asked why they do it this way, they didn't say "oh it was an error". They said I didn't understand how big auction houses work. I have the email.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I am hoping that Travis can post a photo of the PSA and JSA "Auction LOA." Please show it to me and the rest of the members here.

That isn't going to happen. Now that they have been caught it will be burned and removed from their records.

Eric

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

That isn't going to happen. Now that they have been caught it will be burned and removed from their records.

How can something that doesn't exist be destroyed? PSA is scheduled next week to visit HA (Heritage Auctions). That Ty Cobb has not been examined by either PSA or JSA.

Why wasn't there a photo of the PSA and JSA Auction Letter next to the photo of the Ty Cobb baseball? I didn't see it in the HA Preview Listing.

Can any of you show me a recent PSA Auction Letter? PSA has not issued Auction Letters for years.

What a bunch of Know It Alls we have here.

As for you, Egbeachley, if you're going to make a statement like that, please post your full name.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

How can something that doesn't exist be destroyed? PSA is scheduled next week to visit HA (Heritage Auctions). That Ty Cobb has not been examined by either PSA or JSA.

Why wasn't there a photo of the PSA and JSA Auction Letter next to the photo of the Ty Cobb baseball? I didn't see it in the HA Preview Listing.

Can any of you show me a recent PSA Auction Letter? PSA has not issued Auction Letters for years.

What a bunch of Know It Alls we have here.

As for you, Egbeachley, if you're going to make a statement like that, please post your full name.

Screengrab from article says "Full LOA from PSA/DNA and Auction LOA from JSA". It doesn't say anything about a PSA auction letter.

That is being very specific. I'm not sure how you can be so definitive that there is none without just coming out and saying Heritage is lying.

Eric

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Screengrab from article says "Full LOA from PSA/DNA and Auction LOA from JSA". It doesn't say anything about a PSA auction letter.

That is being very specific. I'm not sure how you can be so definitive that there is none without just coming out and saying Heritage is lying.

Eric

I know, Eric, you were just following Travis' lead.

But I was referring to this statement that you wrote; "Now that they have been caught it will be burned and removed from their records."

Eric, can you prove that "It will be burned and removed from their records?"

Of course you can't, because there isn't a full LOA or Auction Letter from anyone.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I know, Eric, you were just following Travis' lead.

But I was referring to this statement that you wrote; "Now that they have been caught it will be burned and removed from their records."

Eric, can you prove that "It will be burned and removed from their records?"

Of course you can't, because there isn't a full LOA or Auction Letter from anyone.

Fair enough. There will be no burning at the stake since there is no LOA. I take that back.

Thanks for the great response from Heritage. It was a good lesson in how the process works.

[travrosty]

First of all, I have shown where the put those pre-authentication statements on items that were live. So heritage didnt tell the entire story.

second, it worked, the hobby worked again, if they are going to change the way they do it, then they realize that what they were doing is confusing/not going to work. Hurray!

A few of us swimming against the tide, who saw something we thought was wrong, got heritage to do the right thing. While taking arrows and personal digs all the way from those who want the status quo to continue and want to protect the auction houses and authenticators.

It still wasn't explained why psa or jsa allowed heritage to do it this way. If they would have simply said 'no, you cannot put our name on the item when we havent looked at it yet', then heritage would have had to do the impossible and hire a few temps to add the authentication tag lines on the last day.

[GrayGhost]

I think Heritage did a GREAT job explaining, but yes, I do agree w Travis in that they shouldn't put that up, when it seemingly is easy to add a tag line before the auction becomes live, even if a lot of items.

[sayhey24]

I don't normally get involved in threads about the authenticity of autographs, because that is not my area of expertise. But, the response from Heritage so astounded me, that I had to reply.

True, the ball is not yet for sale, but that description makes it crystal clear to anyone of "reasonable intelligence" that Heritage believes this is an amazing ball. Anyone of "reasonable intelligence" would believe after reading the description that the LOA had already been issued, as it clearly states in the description. I can't imagine it's a sound business model for any company in America to put things on its website that at the time they are written may or may not be true, or in the case of the statement about the ball having an LOA, are patently false.

It's also rather scary that people at a major auction house couldn't tell with just a casual glance that this is not a 1959 Wilson baseball. And while the description references that the ball was likely signed during Cobb's return to Cooperstown for the 20th anniversary of the 1939 induction ceremony, it took me about 15 seconds on the internet to determine that the 1959 HOF induction ceremony was on July 20, not on July 14 as it says on the ball (highly unlikely that Cobb showed up six days early).

Greg

[ss]

Quoting SeyHey: "I don't normally get involved in threads about the authenticity of autographs, because that is not my area of expertise. But, the response from Heritage so astounded me, that I had to reply...."

Totally agree with SeyHey. heritage should just acknlowledge it made a mistake, and corrected it as soon as they becam aware. Why lie when the truth sounds so much better?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I know, Eric, you were just following Travis' lead.

But I was referring to this statement that you wrote; "Now that they have been caught it will be burned and removed from their records."

Eric, can you prove that "It will be burned and removed from their records?"

Of course you can't, because there isn't a full LOA or Auction Letter from anyone.

Hey, Chris. What do you suppose will happen (or has already happened) to Spence's records of my '27 ball?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I am hoping that Travis can post a photo of the PSA and JSA "Auction LOA." Please show it to me and the rest of the members here.

Isn't that heritage's responbility since they claim the item had one?

It's not my auction. It's theirs.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Isn't that heritage's responbility since they claim the item had one?

It's not my auction. It's theirs.

Travis, if you're going to jump on the bandwagon assaulting PSA about this Cobb item, then you better back up your claims.

Before you jumped on the never-ending bandwagon assaulting PSA, did you think to ask the author of that article to post the actual PSA and JSA Auction Letters? Did you think to ask Mike Henson, the person who started this thread, to post a photograph of the PSA and JSA Auction Letters?

[RichardSimon]

Well something is definitely rotten in the state of Heritage as far as this item goes.
Heritage for sure is full of sh-- for posting this ball and the fact that it had COA's from alphabet city.
PSA and JSA are probably full of sh-- too because if they did issue a COA they did not do much homework on the ball and if they did not issue a COA then they should be pissed as hell at Heritage.
But of course they would never complain to Heritage since that is one of their biggest (maybe biggest) accounts and they want to stay on the good side of Mr. Ivy. So things will stay business as usual.

[Leon]

Chris Ivy asked me to post this for him. He can be reached for questions at CIvy@HA.com or (800) 872-6467.




Why is Heritage selling a Ty Cobb signed baseball that was produced after his death? It isn’t. How did PSA/DNA and James Spence authenticate the ball? They didn’t.

The answers are that simple.

This will come as a disappointment, certainly, to readers craving a juicy sports collectibles scandal, but if fidelity to truth is important to you, you probably wouldn’t be paying attention to Peter Nash anyhow. Try this Google search:

Peter Nash invoked the fifth amendment

Or this one:

Peter Nash admitted fraud

You’ll find some New York Daily News articles which will put this self-proclaimed White Knight of the Sports Collectibles industry in a proper context, and give lovers of scandal and/or irony plenty of enjoyment.

But back to the facts of this particular issue.

Whether or not the ball was ever “for sale,” as Mr. Nash contended, is not even a matter of debate. This lot was consigned to our April 26-27 Signature Auction #7051. Go and have a look at that auction online today. If someone is able to find an active bid button from this auction, or a current lot price, please post a screen shot.

This auction is in previews. It is not active. Nothing is currently “for sale.” Period.

Many of you know how the process works at a major auction house, but for those who don’t, here’s a very basic primer. For several months prior to an auction “going live,” material is consigned from hundreds of different sources. Today, as this is written, there are approximately 2500 lots slated for our April auction, and that number will grow. Not all of them will pass authentication—typically a small percentage of autographed lots will fail.

The cataloging (writing the catalog text) for an auction of this size requires hundreds of hours of work. Heritage, and every other major auction house, begins writing its catalog months before bidding goes live. Most houses don’t put their auctions in previews, but we do. We believe in giving our consignors the most exposure possible. This inevitably means that a small percentage of material visible on our site in previews is not genuine.

Heritage is one of the only auction houses that utilizes the services of both PSA/DNA and James Spence for its autograph authentication. We believe that the legitimacy of the material is of paramount importance, and our dual-authentication policy should illustrate this fact.

We fly each authentication service to Dallas after the consignment deadline so that all autographed material consigned to the auction will be in house. On this trip, the visits come within a week of our deadline to turn the catalog over for layout and printing.
So, the choices are as follows: 1) We can go back individually into seven or eight hundred lots in the incredibly hectic last few hours before our design deadline and add the “authentication tags.” Or, 2) We can add the authentication tags as we write during the weeks and months preceding the authentication process, and simply delete those lots that don’t pass when they are removed from the sale. After all, the bidding is not live, and nobody of reasonable intelligence could conclude that these lots are “For Sale” when they are clearly designated as “Coming Soon.”

And nobody of reasonable intelligence did reach this conclusion.

That’s not a comment on Mr. Nash’s intelligence. He’s very smart. He just doesn’t think that you are.

He saw an opportunity to grab some headlines, to drive traffic to his website, by making an outrageous allegation. The veracity of the statement, or lack thereof, wasn’t the issue. Imagine this headline: “Heritage has non-genuine material in previews that will never make it to auction.” Boring, right?

I can guarantee that the Cobb ball won’t be the last autographed lot booted from this auction. There are surely a few dozen lots in our previews right now that won’t make the cut.

But they’re not for sale. They never were. They never will be. And Mr. Nash always knew it.

We intend to change our policy and figure out a way to add the “authentication tags” only after the authenticators’ visits, in a way that will allow us to launch our auction on time. We have our Internet Technology department working on a way to hide the tags until the auction goes live. It’s apparently more complicated than it sounds, but as long as there are people like Mr. Nash out there desperately dreaming up scandals to deflect from his own, it’s a project and cost that makes sense.




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[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Leon

Chris Ivy asked me to post this for him. He can be reached for questions at CIvy@HA.com or (800) 872-6467.




Why is Heritage selling a Ty Cobb signed baseball that was produced after his death? It isn’t. How did PSA/DNA and James Spence authenticate the ball? They didn’t.

The answers are that simple.

This will come as a disappointment, certainly, to readers craving a juicy sports collectibles scandal, but if fidelity to truth is important to you, you probably wouldn’t be paying attention to Peter Nash anyhow. Try this Google search:

Peter Nash invoked the fifth amendment

Or this one:

Peter Nash admitted fraud

You’ll find some New York Daily News articles which will put this self-proclaimed White Knight of the Sports Collectibles industry in a proper context, and give lovers of scandal and/or irony plenty of enjoyment.

But back to the facts of this particular issue.

Whether or not the ball was ever “for sale,” as Mr. Nash contended, is not even a matter of debate. This lot was consigned to our April 26-27 Signature Auction #7051. Go and have a look at that auction online today. If someone is able to find an active bid button from this auction, or a current lot price, please post a screen shot.

This auction is in previews. It is not active. Nothing is currently “for sale.” Period.

Many of you know how the process works at a major auction house, but for those who don’t, here’s a very basic primer. For several months prior to an auction “going live,” material is consigned from hundreds of different sources. Today, as this is written, there are approximately 2500 lots slated for our April auction, and that number will grow. Not all of them will pass authentication—typically a small percentage of autographed lots will fail.

The cataloging (writing the catalog text) for an auction of this size requires hundreds of hours of work. Heritage, and every other major auction house, begins writing its catalog months before bidding goes live. Most houses don’t put their auctions in previews, but we do. We believe in giving our consignors the most exposure possible. This inevitably means that a small percentage of material visible on our site in previews is not genuine.

Heritage is one of the only auction houses that utilizes the services of both PSA/DNA and James Spence for its autograph authentication. We believe that the legitimacy of the material is of paramount importance, and our dual-authentication policy should illustrate this fact.

We fly each authentication service to Dallas after the consignment deadline so that all autographed material consigned to the auction will be in house. On this trip, the visits come within a week of our deadline to turn the catalog over for layout and printing.
So, the choices are as follows: 1) We can go back individually into seven or eight hundred lots in the incredibly hectic last few hours before our design deadline and add the “authentication tags.” Or, 2) We can add the authentication tags as we write during the weeks and months preceding the authentication process, and simply delete those lots that don’t pass when they are removed from the sale. After all, the bidding is not live, and nobody of reasonable intelligence could conclude that these lots are “For Sale” when they are clearly designated as “Coming Soon.”

And nobody of reasonable intelligence did reach this conclusion.

That’s not a comment on Mr. Nash’s intelligence. He’s very smart. He just doesn’t think that you are.

He saw an opportunity to grab some headlines, to drive traffic to his website, by making an outrageous allegation. The veracity of the statement, or lack thereof, wasn’t the issue. Imagine this headline: “Heritage has non-genuine material in previews that will never make it to auction.” Boring, right?

I can guarantee that the Cobb ball won’t be the last autographed lot booted from this auction. There are surely a few dozen lots in our previews right now that won’t make the cut.

But they’re not for sale. They never were. They never will be. And Mr. Nash always knew it.

We intend to change our policy and figure out a way to add the “authentication tags” only after the authenticators’ visits, in a way that will allow us to launch our auction on time. We have our Internet Technology department working on a way to hide the tags until the auction goes live. It’s apparently more complicated than it sounds, but as long as there are people like Mr. Nash out there desperately dreaming up scandals to deflect from his own, it’s a project and cost that makes sense.




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Great response Chris Ivy! Thanks Leon...

[drc]

The Game Used Universe auctions posts their auction lots early in part to give bidders and board members a chance to look over the lots and discuss them before the actions-- the discussions going on at the same site where the auction takes place! There was discussion of a Joe Namath jersey and, due to questions, it was pulled before the auction started so they could further research. I believe this is an example of why they post the lots early and let people discuss. If they made a big boo boo, they want to hear about it before the auction starts rather than after it's sold and shipped.

First, it was a 1968 Ford Mustang GT 390 not a 1967 Mustang driven by McQueen in Bullitt. http://themustangsource.com/timeline/67-68/68/bullitt/. Any collector or auction house who had done their homework knows it, and would not sell or buy it.

Second, the Cobb ball is obviously a bad forgery. Any collector or auction house who had done their homework knows it, and would not sell or buy it.

Yes, authentication is a touchy subject as is misrepresentation. But really, take a breather, please.

Ty Phelan

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have our Internet Technology department working on a way to hide the tags until the auction goes live. It’s apparently more complicated than it sounds, but as long as there are people like Mr. Nash out there desperately dreaming up scandals to deflect from his own, it’s a project and cost that makes sense.
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Actually, it shouldn't be that complicated. I'm guessing there is an Auction Open/Live boolean flag or a Date field when it's open sitting in your database that you can use in your if and else statement to hide those tags on all items that belong to that particular auction. I noticed your pages are PHP, give me two hours of time at $150/hr and I'll code it and test it for you. And my guess is that JSA/PSA would like this done immediately too.

Matt