The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[Joe_G.]

Hello Dan & others . . .

Assigning a numerical grade to a card that the hobby concedes "should be" hand cut is risky (Piedmont Plank). SGC knew this would be met with criticism and disbelief so I completely understand the accompanying letter from head grader/president. I wouldn't expect the same support network with other cards.

Do we have proof that all Piedmont Plank cards are hand cut? No! The scenario outlined by Jim is plausible.

Do we have proof that this Piedmont Plank is factory cut? No!

However, after carefully studying this card with some of the best tools in the industry and "better than average" eyes, SGC felt confident in giving it a numerical grade. That will hold stock with many collectors in the hobby (apparently none on this board).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Hello Dan & others . . .

That will hold stock with many collectors in the hobby (apparently none on this board).

It doesn't look trimmed, from the scan, to this untrained eye. That being said this is my one and only post in this thread. I am just not going to get into a debate about it. I will let ya'll. I am merely saying it doesn't look trimmed to me, from the scan posted.

[wonkaticket]

I respect that Leon on another note since it looks good to you I have handfull EXMT-NM cards for the next B&L.

[sreader3]

Jim--I think one of us is supposed to say "jinx". Scot

[E93]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Jim--I think one of us is supposed to say "jinx". Scot

[bosoxfan]

can someone please explain to this newb, what you see from that picture/scan that so convinces many that it's trimmed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't have the experiance to tell.

Rich

[FrankWakefield]

Rich,

Planks are found with 2 backs. So far we perceive that all Piedmont 150 Planks show signs of being hand cut. This Plank that is offered is a Piedmont 150.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

It doesn't look trimmed, from the scan, to this untrained eye. That being said this is my one and only post in this thread. I am just not going to get into a debate about it. I will let ya'll. I am merely saying it doesn't look trimmed to me, from the scan posted.

Hey Leon, what are your thoughts on the Green Cobb?

thanks
dan

[t206hound]

Are all of the cards in the auction from the same collection? And were they all graded "together"? I'm going to assume, for the moment, that the answer to both of those questions is yes.

There are 38 cards in the auction that are slabbed Authentic. From a quick glance, this includes at least four HOF (including a Cobb) and five Southern League players.

For those who believe that the Plank, Magie, Cobb and/or others are trimmed yet received numerical grades:
Is it your opinion that the TPG intentionally ignored signs of trimming on these cards (but not the 38 they slabbed "A")... or that they simply missed the evidence of trimming when examining these particular raw cards?

[danmckee]

Well, that is a tough call.

Can you miss something on a Plank and Magie when you should be giving them the most attention?

Can you miss a very obvious hack job on the Green Cobb which is also one of the main cards in the most popular T206 set?

I have my own opinions

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Are all of the cards in the auction from the same collection? And were they all graded "together"? I'm going to assume, for the moment, that the answer to both of those questions is yes.

Regarding your second question, can't you just look at the slab i.d. numbers?

I don't think it matters much - we all know that the grading companies slab altered cards with numbers, and we all know the reasons. None of this should be surprising since the problem started when a slabbing company was birthed solely for the purpose of giving legitimacy to an illegitimate card. That was sort of a huge clue as to what was to come.

The only thing that's important here is whether or not there are, in fact, factory Plank Piedmont 150's. I think this particular card is going to get tossed into the same 'slabs of infamy' pile as the Gretzky Wagner, even if it doesn't deserve to be. The slabbing companies have only themselves to blame - slabbing trimmed cards in the past, and slabbing that green Cobb in the same auction as this questionable Plank, is not helping their case.

I believe SGC thinks they got the Plank right. Maybe they did.

[sreader3]

On the other Plank P150s, all four sides appear to be hand cut. So wouldn't one expect that, if the Goodwin/SGC Plank were hand cut, it would be evident on all four borders?

[danmckee]

The Plank - It is the bottom edge to me and very noticable where it meets the left front corner. I see rounding at the corner not matching the bottom edge. Trimmed, hand-cut, whatever, that doesn't look factory to me.

I probably didn't explain that very well.

"where one would expect the corner wear to be a complete arc starting at the left edge and going to the bottom edge, the arc appears to be cut off and hits the bottom edge at a weird angle. "

This is what I was trying to say! Thanks to another member for helping me express myself!






This is an excellent debate!

and Leon your thoughts are always welcome in any of my threads whether we agree or not.

JimB, thanks for mentioning the green Cobb, I appreciate that.

Helen Keller would have slabbed that Cobb authentic!

[E93]

Originally Posted by danmckee

The Plank - It is the bottom edge to me and very noticable where it meets the left front corner. I see rounding at the corner not matching the bottom edge. Trimmed, hand-cut, whatever, that doesn't look factory to me.

Hi Dan,
I see what you are talking about and noticed it in the much-enlarged blowup of the card. It is almost unnoticeable and 1:1 levels. To me that is a very minor red flag (that can be explained in other ways) absent other evidence. If we could examine the card in person, we could examine the roll of that edge compared with the roll of the other edges on that card and other T206s in general. If this were a hand-cut card in 1909, that red flag could only be indicative of something other than trimming. Those types of indicators are evidence of trimming when a card had developed worn corners over the decades AND THEN was trimmed more recently to upgrade the appearance of the card. But that is not what most are arguing here. Most question the card because they think it must have been hand-cut because the other Piedmont scrap Planks were. If the argument is that it was trimmed recently to improve its grade, then is the presumption that it was factory cut and only the bottom edge was trimmed for that purpose? If that is the case, it is an entirely different argument and people should be thrilled to have found a factory cut Piedmont Plank, even if trimmed on one edge for grade improvement. But that is not the argument people are making. It just seems to me like there is an inconsistency in the arguments being made. If all four sides were trimmed, it must have been seriously oversized.
JimB

[atx840]

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

[slabbed Speaker removed]

funny, Chris - that's the same Tris before I cracked him out. I didn't realize there were still any of his mugshot scans on the web.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are there any Wagner Piedmont 150s whose factory cut status is undisputed?

[MW1]

Not that outrageous of a grade on the T206 Speaker. The top of the card is miscut although SGC does not put qualifiers on its flips like PSA. Therefore, the only reasonable "grades" were either "Poor/Fair" or "Authentic". It was simply a judgment call on the part of SGC. I'm not sure what the issue is here since "Poor/Fair" has been used interchangeably with "Authentic" on a number of graded cards over the past decade and the respective values are roughly similar.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not that outrageous of a grade on the T206 Speaker. The top of the card is miscut although SGC does not put qualifiers on its flips like PSA. Therefore, the only reasonable "grades" were either "Poor/Fair" or "Authentic". It was simply a judgment call on the part of SGC. I'm not sure what the issue is here since "Poor/Fair" has been used interchangeably with "Authentic" on a number of graded cards over the past decade and the respective values are roughly similar.

There wasn't an issue. Dan made a comment that a diamond cut on one end required a diamond cut on the other. I was just saying that with the card in hand, both top and bottom borders looked good (not hand-cut) to me. The card also has kind of a surface tear (vertical) that is hard to see behind plastic, and still not too visually detrimental when raw. I don't know if that contributed to the 'poor/fair' grade - maybe it would have been higher without it, even with the diamond-cut top border.

Great thread, Dan.

[E93]

Just curious, if the card were hand-cut from a sheet, wouldn't all the edges be hand-cut, not just the bottom edge that some say is suspicious? As for the green Cobb, that one is a problem.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

Just curious, if the card were hand-cut from a sheet, wouldn't all the edges be hand-cut, not just the bottom edge that some say is suspicious? As for the green Cobb, that one is a problem.
JimB

Depends I guess this would depend where on the sheet the card was located...which we will never know nor could we even really begin to guess as no known sheet is out there to compare to.

It could have been on a panel and on the end of said panel. I only say that because not only does the bottom look odd but the back right side does as well. But as I said that's my thoughts SGC has given theirs. If you want to break the bank as was stated above get to breaking it's all good and it's open for debate.

I guess we could sort of solve this if it was on a panel where the card was. We could always ask Mastro where the Plank sheet mate was on that panel before it and the hobby’s most expensive card were trimmed down off their original stock as hobby lore goes.

Cheers,

John

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread, thanks for putting your thoughts out there Dan and thanks for our recent trade.

As far as the cards, I am in Jims camp, I just feel that because of how few Plank P150 that exist the chance that a few could have been inserted into the product or factory cut is a possibilty. I also had another thought because of how nice this card is, what happened if this card was on a sheet that was cut at the factory and set to be inserted into a pack but it was pulled at the last moment and say an employee took it home instead of throwing it away, I think possible (If someone can do this with the US Mint and 1933 Double Eagle coins why not cards). I do feel like from scans it looks good but without the raw card in hand too hard to really judge.