Was I Shilled??

calvindog · #1 04-20-2012, 10:22 PM

Paul, being smugly ignorant is nothing to be proud of.

Let me explain to you how someone like you gets defrauded by certain auction houses. You don't put ceiling bids in and assume you're not being shilled -- when in fact, the auction house employees/principals know that you collect signed prewar cards. And they know your bidding history from prior auctions and have a fair idea how much you'll be willing to spend on a card you want. They see your bids in on some of the cards you collect. They know (or believe they know) what they think the card is worth -- or what they want it to sell for. So they put a bid in above your bid. They assume you'll top it -- and you will because you want the card. They then top you -- and you may or may not top their shill bid. At the end of the night, they sometimes get stuck with cards (and often times will go to the underbidder and offer the card) but usually they don't. You pull out a cigar and pour yourself a cognac, thinking you won the card and were smart about not getting shilled. Guess again.

jhs5120 · #2 04-21-2012, 12:39 AM

Not to be completely OT, but I was extremely disappointed when my $1,200 snipe was outmatched. I hate it when people find all my bargains!!!

T206Collector · #3 04-21-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Paul, being smugly ignorant is nothing to be proud of.

Let me explain to you how someone like you gets defrauded by certain auction houses. You don't put ceiling bids in and assume you're not being shilled -- when in fact, the auction house employees/principals know that you collect signed prewar cards. And they know your bidding history from prior auctions and have a fair idea how much you'll be willing to spend on a card you want. They see your bids in on some of the cards you collect. They know (or believe they know) what they think the card is worth -- or what they want it to sell for. So they put a bid in above your bid. They assume you'll top it -- and you will because you want the card. They then top you -- and you may or may not top their shill bid. At the end of the night, they sometimes get stuck with cards (and often times will go to the underbidder and offer the card) but usually they don't. You pull out a cigar and pour yourself a cognac, thinking you won the card and were smart about not getting shilled. Guess again.

Actually, what happened last time I bid in an auction for a signed card was a little different. I was bidding on this sweet signed Larry Doyle T206. When the bidding reached $200, there was a knock at my door. There were two men in dark suits and sunglasses there. Before I knew it, they had me pinned down on the floor, and they injected me with a powerful sedative. They propped me up at my computer, and started placing bids on all sorts of things I would never bid on -- 1957 Topps partial sets; 1970s Kelloggs issues; Drake's Cakes unopened boxes of Ring Dings with Mattingly and McGwire on the back. It was terrifying. By the time they left, I had fortunately been outbid on everything except the Doyle, which I won for $200. I pulled out a cigar and craved a sniff of cognac. But do you think I'd bid in that auction again? Guess again.

Fortunately we have you to save us from the dreaded auction house defrauders, who torment us when we win auctions for prices we are happy to pay. But who will defend us from the Men In Black when they knock on the door? Who will make us feel safe in our homes again?

calvindog · #4 04-21-2012, 08:10 AM

Paul, you're allegedly a lawyer aren't you? That means you allegedly understand the law, right? Why so happy to be a fraud victim? Think of all that you could do with that extra money you're losing. You could pay for CLE classes.

T206Collector · #5 04-21-2012, 08:49 AM

You're like the vegetarian who asks me, "Why do you enjoy eating dead flesh?"

Fraud has many flavors. Some of them taste good with a good cognac and a cigar.

Shill bidding that resembles a hidden reserve is not something I choose to care about.

I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items.

Fortunately I don't have to pay for CLE, so no worries, I will still keep my license to practice the law in the same great state of New York that you practice in. But, if I ever get arrested for fraud, I'll be sure and look you up to defend me against an overreaching government.

calvindog · #6 04-21-2012, 08:52 AM

No offense, I've seen your collection -- you can't afford me.

T206Collector · #7 04-21-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

No offense, I've seen your collection -- you can't afford me.

Oh snap! Not only does my collection suck, but I'm poor too. Your critical argument tactics are amazing. I can see why you charge so much.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 04-21-2012, 08:53 AM

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

calvindog · #9 04-21-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

Believe me, one indictment won't stop it either. There needs to be a belief by auction house principals that there will be ramifications for their actions, not just a rare bit of enforcement of the law.

ctownboy · #10 04-21-2012, 09:44 AM

"I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items."

Really? I think prices would decrease fairly quickly. How much? I don't know but I think they WOULD go down.

I mean, there are some sellers out there who are probably into cards because they CAN shill their own auctions. Take that extra profit away and it isn't going to be worth their time to stay in that section of business. They will just move on to another scam.

Also, if cards are being shilled on eBay and the large auction houses and those prices are being picked up and used for things like VCP lists, what do you think would happen if all of a sudden the shill bids were NOT being placed and cards were selling for what they would without a shill? What if a $100 dollar shill bid card were actually only worth $75 dollars without the shill?

Nope, take shilling out and there would be fewer sellers, more cards on the market and more reasonable prices....

David

T206Collector · #11 04-21-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Nope, take shilling out and there would be fewer sellers, more cards on the market and more reasonable prices....

Fewer sellers means fewer cards on the market, not more. We see this phenomenon on ebay -- when prices go down, we have many fewer auctions and much more high BINs.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Is anyone buying this newly made junk or are all of these auctions shilled?	danmckee	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	15	02-22-2011 10:21 PM
The Ebay Drum is back....was it shilled?	Chicago206	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	7	04-22-2010 03:12 PM
ok Lawyers- Is shill bidding illegal?	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	90	07-04-2008 07:02 PM
What do you do if you are shilled but the price is still fair?	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	41	10-26-2007 03:09 PM
Have I been shilled?	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	6	05-09-2005 03:12 AM