The Show at The Oaks in Philly- a Disaster!

[bbcard1]

I know for a fact that Marco spent more than $7000 was spent in the philly paper in the sports section. I'm not saying it was a good show, but the fact is that Marco made a good effort. He also did digital boards on the main highway.

I know he wants to make it work, but I don't know what he can do...but the idea the show was not advertised is incorrect.

[mordecaibrown]

I went to the Oaks show on Saturday and it certainly was not busy. I had the pleasure to meet John (WonkaTicket) and enjoyed discussing some other sets that are outside my usual collection - it was very educational for me and I appreciated his time (Dan - unfortunately I did not have the chance to meet you, you were away from the table when I was there).

In my opinion, the reason people do not go to shows anymore is that they have become museums! Personally, I have no problem spending a reasonable premium on cards at shows over buying on the internet - I can see the card in person, I dont have to spend on shipping, I get to interact with people in the hobby - all benefits that make it worth spending a slight premium to me. I understand the dealers have table fees, transportation, etc. as well.

However, the prices I was quoted on cards were out of this world. I have no problem with a dealer starting a little high and negotiating, but when the starting prices are insane - there is no reason for me to counter with an "insulting" offer.

I inquired about a card that recently sold in the Sterling Auction (Thursday night) and the card at the show and in the auction were both SGC 40 (I know some are not fond of grading and all SGC40s are not the same, but this gives a point of reference).

The price quoted at the show was twice what the card sold for as recently as 2 nights prior (with buyers premium). When I mentioned the auction of the card, the dealer just blew me off. Again, I would have been willing to pay more in person, but the initial price was so high - how do you start a negotiation???

So, in my opinion, vintage card collecting is strong in the PA area; however, shows are dying down because, the show prices are just not realistic. Why drive to a show and pay an entrance fee to have the opportunity to see cards at drastically elevated prices - when I can sit at home and peruse ebay, net54, etc and find a card at a reasonable price?

If the answer is its a great time to meet others in the hobby, well I agree with that, but thats what the shows are becoming - an opportunity to meet others in the hobby and learn, but not to buy items.

Again - that is just my opinion and experience from this weekend's show.

Andy

[travrosty]

I have seen that too, stratospheric prices on cards, don't know if they ever really want to sell any of them. If the card is nice, i expect it to be listed high, a little over high retail. but some dont even put a price on their cards, they want you to ask about it, thats a clue to me that the price must be sky high.

I went to the national in '91 and tried to buy a few 80-81 topps basketball panel commons and semi-stars, (i know, not exactly vintage stuff,)

but anyway, common cards which would normally sell for 50 cents had 7 or 8or 9 dollar price tags and the semi stars which would normally be a dollar or two had 25 or 30 or 40 dollar price tags. WTH?

I picked out about a dozen of them, thinking that the pricing had to be a mistake and those amounts must mean cents, not dollars, he added them all up and said two fifty. I gave him a 5 dollar bill, and then he looked at me and said "that's two hundred and fifty dollars"

I put them down, said no thanks, and moved on.

[Chris-Counts]

I agree that the vast majority of cards at shows are overpriced and no doubt contribute to the demise of such shows. I've been to shows in San Francisco and Glendale over the past few weeks, and one card dramatically illustrated this point for me. I got outbid on eBay for a trimmed T206 Ed Walsh. It went for about $180, which was nearly double what I wanted to pay — and what I eventually will pay for it if I'm patient. Just a few days after the eBay auction closed, I saw it in San Francisco for $415. Yes, "museum" is a good word for what shows have become ...

[barrysloate]

Sounds like the dealers who price their cards right and genuinely want to do business are being affected by those who charge multiples of retail. It's keeping the consumers away and hurting everyone.

[Chris D.]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

However, the prices I was quoted on cards were out of this world. I have no problem with a dealer starting a little high and negotiating, but when the starting prices are insane - there is no reason for me to counter with an "insulting" offer.
Andy

Exact issue I had on Saturday.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I know for a fact that Marco spent more than $7000 was spent in the philly paper in the sports section. I'm not saying it was a good show, but the fact is that Marco made a good effort. He also did digital boards on the main highway.

I know he wants to make it work, but I don't know what he can do...but the idea the show was not advertised is incorrect.

That is interesting, Wonka lives 5 minutes from there and travels 422 to and from his office and never saw anything. It is possible that the couple who had to find out by a local card shop, missed the paper advertisement.

[danmckee]

These are all fair statements. Especially when you are looking for cards that are fairly common to find.

My expenses were:

$350 for 2 tables
$225 for 2 nights Hotel (my choice for Courtyard)
$75 in gas from Freeland Maryland
$20 splitting Hot Dogs with Wonka
2 1/2 days away from my family.

So I would have had to clear close to $700 to break even

Dan

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by danmckee

That is interesting, Wonka lives 5 minutes from there and travels 422 to and from his office and never saw anything. It is possible that the couple who had to find out by a local card shop, missed the paper advertisement.

It is completely possible. Fewer and fewer people read the paper.Sad but true.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

It is completely possible. Fewer and fewer people read the paper.Sad but true.

Yes that is very sad! My dad loves the paper!

[wonkaticket]

Great meeting you too Andy enjoyed talking with you guys.

I live right in the area I saw nothing anywhere in the way of billboard face time. I dont read local papers too much but my buddy Matt lives by them as a local coach of a high school team and he didn't know the show was going on.

The location is good and bad good becuse it's easy to get to, bad because it's off the path and hard know if things are happening.

I'm sure Marco made an effort but much of the crowd was overflow from the other shows...

I find it amazing that the baby and toddler show next door was packed parking lot full each day and nobody came to see and get autos signed and look at sports stuff, yet the music show and latino chruch thing next door were also jumping...

For me I did ok I sold all I brought with me so I was ok with the show.

Cheers,

John

[edhans]

My expenses were:

$350 for 2 tables
$225 for 2 nights Hotel (my choice for Courtyard)
$75 in gas from Freeland Maryland
$20 splitting Hot Dogs with Wonka
2 1/2 days away from my family.

So I would have had to clear close to $700 to break even

Dan,
You would've had to clear a hell of a lot more if you counted the cost of the cards you sold into the equation.

[x2drich2000]

Let me start off by saying, I want this show to thrive. I really like going to shows, but something has to be done or this show won't survive.

Obviously, as Dan pointed out, the costs to set up at a show go beyond just the table costs. From a dealer's prospective, these costs need to be made up somewhere. Therefore, I think it should be expected that you will pay a bit more at a show then online. At the same time, double or triple the price just seems outrageous

I appreciate that Marco spent $7000+ on advertising for the show. That's quite a bit of money and at least shows some dedication to making the show work. However, it seems to me based on my own observations, and the comments by others, that the advertising was not effective and this was money not well spent. Personally, I know very few people who still get newspapers. Billboards are limited to who is traveling on that particular road. In addition, Billboards do not focus on a specific demographic. Card collecting is a much pretty specific niche of the community. There is by far a much larger population that would be interested in a baby/toddler show. Therefore, the advertising I believe needs to be targeted more to our limited population.

So if you were a show promoter today, what kind of advertising would you do to make a newer show such as Oaks successful?

dj

[Leon]

I haven't seen a poor point made yet, all good points. Not sure where to start but I guess with the costs. Dan's $700 is profit he would have to make before breaking even financially (forget about time served, that is actually a positive). If we figure 15%-20% profit then he would have to do around 3500-4000 in sales. I can only speak for myself but the last show at Oaks I did, I did a bit more than that. I also price my stuff fairly (I believe). If I get a great deal I try to make up for bad deals. At the end of the day, 15% profit is probably where I end up. I love going to shows and would also pay a bit more at a show,......say, maybe 15% or so. ......the dealers I usually see have their stuff priced the way others have already vented about. It's crazy. I probably am not going to pay a ton more....a little yes, a ton, no. I also agree with the advertising. If no one saw it then there are probably better ways to spend the money. Marco did advertise on this board (it was appreciated) and I am sure many have seen the ads. I don't have a silver bullet but I remain committed to doing the Oaks show and will try even harder to make the next one. I thoroughly enjoyed it the last times I did it. Also, with airfare and hotel my expenses are considerably more but that is the way it is when you live in a city with no good vintage shows. You either travel or you don't do them. Hanging out with lots of my friends is more than a collector could ask for, in itself. See you guys next time...

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

So if you were a show promoter today, what kind of advertising would you do to make a newer show such as Oaks successful?

dj

Get the email address of every person that walks into every show you do. Get the email address of every person that buys an autograph from you, whether in person, by mail, by phone, by internet. Send several emails prior to every show you do to the entire list. How much would that cost? Then, whatever actual cash you spend, put every dollar into online promotion, including everything like Net54 you can find. Newspapers and billboards, are you kidding me? I would have laughed at that ten years ago. I harangued Marco for years to do the email thing, but finally gave up. I don't think he's ever done it to this day. Now, he does get a good crowd to Chantilly, and to the Edison show, so he's doing something right there. But 90+% of the crowds at those shows are there strictly for the signing guests, so the vintage dealers are always depending on the few actual collectors who do manage to become aware of the show (probably from word of mouth or just knowing about when the shows are held usually.) Marco's a buddy, and I love doing his shows, but us dealers for years have been mere window dressing to the real action going on behind the scenes, and at some point he's going to lose the window dressing and it will be a big autograph event only. Maybe enough shiny stuff and autograph supplies guys will survive to provide the appearance of a "card and memorabilia show," but it will not be a show in the old sense any more.
As for the mystery of how the dealers who price their stuff beyond all reasoning manage to survive, I can't imagine. I do know that to cover expenses, pay for inventory, and end up with something for my time and effort, I need to actually SELL STUFF, so I try to price accordingly. That's half the game of being a dealer, knowing what the market will bear. How can these guys keep doing shows? How do they last charging 2 or 3X what any idiot can see from the net is the going price? I don't get it, but I'm guessing they won't be around much longer. Unfortunately, they and the other forces perhaps beyond our control will take the shows with them. But, hey, let's enjoy them while we can!

[Delray Vintage]

I buy a few high cost vintage cards a year. I find the auctions in April and May provide all I need to pick what I want to buy at market prices. I at least know what a fair price is and do not need to see the same cards at booths at higher prices. So give me a good web site or catalog and I'll save time and travel money. I did go to the national in Baltimore but was dissapointed with the prices. I got a few expensive cards crossed over but that was all. I am seeing that the vast information available on the web makes these dealers who over price real dinosaurs. Like it or not the Internet age makes market pricing easy to find and you cannot hope for some fool to pay twice as much anymore because they see it at a show.

[tedzan]

Considering the low attendance, I had a pretty good show. This is the 3rd Oaks Show that I have set up at; and, all 3 have been good for me in terms
of selling, buying and trading vintage cards.

Here is the scenario......

Friday was very slow. On Saturday I had a couple of "big hitters" that made my day. Especially, the guy that bought my T206 Johnson (Ex condition).
He was interested in this card and after we discussed the price, he said that he would return.....Well, you know how that goes.
However, I was pleasantly surprised when he did return several hours later and we did the deal.

My usual T206 "junk-box" was cleaned out. Sold some T205's. And, a large lot of 1949 BOWMAN Hi# cards. A few 1949 LEAF BB - 1st series cards. And,
two 1910 COUPON Southern Leaguer's. Oh, and 1950's & 1960's Yankees & Phillies (Ford, "Puddin Head" Jones, Roberts, Skowron, "Dooley" Womack. etc.)

Sunday was not too busy, so I caught up on reading a great BB book...."Perfect".

Hey guys....I was ONE-FOR-THREE....that's batting .333 and that's good enough to get you into the HOF.

" That's All Folks ! "

I look forward to Marco's Fall show in Oaks....it's got to get better.


TED Z