What pre-war guy do you feel should be in the HOF....I'll start with Jake Daubert

T205Guy · #1 05-22-2012, 09:55 PM

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

ethicsprof · #2 05-22-2012, 10:18 PM

cactus cravath.
THE home run king for a number of years before babe ruth redefined
everything. I think his name should be memorized by all little leaguers.
all the best,
barry

Kenny Cole · #3 05-22-2012, 10:37 PM

There is an argument for every name that has been thrown up thus far. However, notwithstanding the revamping of the veteran's committee so that the voters supposedly have more expertise on pre-1947 players then they did in the past, I'm not at all confident that they will ever elect any of the pre-1947 players.

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

If the committee actually does manage to perform its function (which would be akin to the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn), I suspect that the most likely candidate to be elected, as a player, is Dahlen. As best as I can tell, he was highly regarded at the time and statistically, his numbers are pretty compelling.

triwak · #4 05-23-2012, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

Kenny, perhaps I'm reading the "new" rules incorrectly, but I believe the Vet's voting now is divided into 3 eras with 3 different committees: Pre-Integration (prior to 1947), Golden (1947-1972), and Expansion (1973-present). Each committee votes for ALL types of candidates from THAT era, including players, managers, executive/pioneers, and umpires. Torre and LaRussa will only be considered by the Expansion Era committee.

Joe_G. · #5 05-22-2012, 10:37 PM

I'm with John Dreker and SABRs 19th century committee, but for slightly different reasons than John writes about. In short, Deacon was the best catcher in the game during the 1870s, an era in which the catcher was considered the most important position in baseball. Team success relied on having a quality catcher more so than any other position including pitcher. The danger level was truly off the charts in 1870 with Deacon moving up to behind the batter when runners were on base (a tactic credited to Deacon) with virtually no protective gear, and dealing with increasingly fast pitch speeds (fast enough for effective curve balls etc.). To add to his catching skills, Deacon was feared at bat, either leading or among the leaders with frequency (BA, RBIs, etc.). Deacon was the gold standard during the 1870s, the stuff of legend, but his position did take a toll and he had to re-invent himself for the 2nd half of his career, moving to 3rd base. In his later years, all the way up to the end when he was the oldest player in baseball, he posted respectable numbers. Bill James even rated him as top 100 3rd basemen (76th). Unfortunately, I believe he was best remembered for his less impressive performance from 1880-1890 as opposed to his superstar status from the late 1860s-1879.

For more info on Deacon including display of all 9 poses in the Old Judge set, visit this older link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126514

MacDice · #6 05-22-2012, 11:15 PM

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

D. Bergin · #7 05-23-2012, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDice

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

Never understood that phrase at all. Did the person who first came up with it, or anybody else who parrots it, ever think it through.

Does the word "Fame" translate into a definition I'm not aware of?

Carl Mays and Hippo Vaughn's numbers are still better then Waite Hoyt's and several others in the Hall. Have their numbers gotten worse?

oldjudge · #8 05-23-2012, 01:24 AM

My friend Joe makes an excellent arguement for Deacon White. White was a .312 lifetime hitter and he had 988 RBIs in 1560 games. His RBI/game ratio is virtually the same as Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, and only slightly behind 19th century slugger Roger Connor. These hitting achievements are no small feat for a man whose hands were no doubt routinely swolen for a significant part of his career from catching bare handed.

GaryPassamonte · #9 05-23-2012, 06:54 AM

Ross Barnes. He was simply the best player in the NA and is the only player to hit over .400 four times in his career.
As I've said prior, we have a preoccupation with stats when evaluating players of the earliest era. These players can not be judged by the benchmarks accepted for later players. Many played prior to the arrival of professionalism and the rules were different. I believe the period assessments given to early players by their peers hold a lot of weight, also. Anson, Spalding, and the Wrights all put Barnes at or near the top of their list when asked to name the greatest players of their era. It doesn't get any better than that.

tedzan · #10 05-23-2012, 08:59 AM

I'm with you guys regarding Deacon White. Nevertheless, there appears to be times when who is selected for the HOF; and, who is not.....
is "arbitrary".

For example, Deacon's career .312 BA brings to mind Johnny Mize, who had an identical career .312 BA. Furthermore, Mize drove in 1337
Runs and scored 1118 Runs in 1884 games.
I am old enough to have seen Mize play (from 1947 - 1953), he was a tremendous clutch hitter with a lot of power. His #'s are impressive
and are better than quite a few who are in the HOF..........

100 - 138 RBI/year (8 seasons)

1337 = career RBI

.312 = BA

.562 = SLAvg

359 = HR

Yet, the HOF Committe overlooked Mize for many years. I never understood this....just as you guys can't understand what has prevented
Deacon White from being selected to the HOF.

Mize's vision was as keen as Ted Williams' vision. When Johnny hit 51 HR's in 1947, his K's were only 42. As far as power hitter's go, does
it get any better than that in Baseball......I don't think so ?

Yes, Johnny's in the HOF....but, he should have entered thru the "front door"; and, not via the Veteran's Committee in 1981.

TED Z

glynparson · #11 05-23-2012, 09:13 AM

does not mean greatest of the greats or best to ever play so i never really understood the its not the hall of very good argument. in fact that always seemed a little childish to me. I see Mr. Bergin beat me to this.

tedzan · #12 05-22-2012, 11:23 PM

With a lifetime BA = .333 "Turkey" Donlin would have been a great candidate for the HOF had he taken his BB career more seriously. Instead of vaudville and the movies.

TED Z

npa589 · #13 05-23-2012, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T205Guy

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

...along with Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Rogers Hornsby, Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Kiki Cuyler, Burleigh Grimes, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Fergie Jenkins, Lee Smith, Ryne Sandberg, and Dennis Eckersley.

CMIZ5290 · #14 05-23-2012, 08:54 AM

Getting back to this guy, i have no clue why he's not in the hall. I believe his career record was 182-106 with an era of 2.24....makes no sense at all

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