How to put the Forgers Out of Business Quickly

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

Ebby,
I strongly suspect that there are far less of "Them" than of "Us" but I could be wrong as those were the exact same words George Armstrong Custer said right before he rode over the "ridge" at the Little Big Horn.
Ned

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

I agree with this. I think there are less veteran buyers out there needing/wanting a real Mantle ball for $500 than there are impulse buyers saying "Wow! Mickey Mantle was my dad's hero, and I can get a ball signed by him for only $250? I'm going to buy one for my boy as a keepsake."

Ken

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I agree with this. I think there are less veteran buyers out there needing/wanting a real Mantle ball for $500 than there are impulse buyers saying "Wow! Mickey Mantle was my dad's hero, and I can get a ball signed by him for only $250? I'm going to buy one for my boy as a keepsake."

Ken

Exactly, or a son buying a Father's Day gift or a wife/mother buying a birthday gift, or, or, or.....a reseller looking for value to flip. The vetting threshold is far lower for these folks than it is for knowledgable collectors.

[JimStinson]

Rich, Just joshing although it IS kinda funny to think of you having a "Topeka" address (smile). Are you going to the National this year ?

[shelly]

I agree with everything that Jim said except for Richard .
Most people can't afford to buy a Jeter ball at $300 plus. So you know exactly what they do. They will buy something for $50 and tell the kid its real. Jim, when you were a kid the players signed. Today its all about the money . You can't stop this without the public saying enough is enough and that won't happen.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by shelly

I agree with everything that Jim said except for Richard .
Most people can't afford to buy a Jeter ball at $300 plus. So you know exactly what they do. They will buy something for $50 and tell the kid its real. Jim, when you were a kid the players signed. Today its all about the money . You can't stop this without the public saying enough is enough and that won't happen.

Why not buy a $10 ball at the store and sign it yourself if money is that big of a concern?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by shelly

You can't stop this without the public saying enough is enough and that won't happen.

How about we use the talents of this board to compose a letter that can be sent to newspapers, TV, 'unaware' sellers, and possibly even lawmakers? I have already tried law enforcement and without clearcut direction, they can't/won't take any action. I think a strong front will be necessary to get any action. It could come from the net54 PAC!

[JimStinson]

The problem is that newspapers and TV eat that stuff up and then use it to bash the hobby over the head, but when THEY do it they don;t seperate the good guys from the bad guys. I've been a dealer for 30 years and I've met far more good people in this hobby/business than bad ones. But try doing a story about that ! Their readers would be sleeping by the 2nd paragraph.

Newspapers never write about relaxing sunny days they write about HURRICANES & s***t Storms because thats what sells papers

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . is among the list of trusted autograph dealers that I have bought from (along with Averitt, Corcoran, Simon, Gordon, Keating, and Albersheim).

What Jim stated makes sense to me. 100% foolproof it's not, but I'd much rather take most of my chances with these gentlemen, and the remainder on my own opinion, then with most of the unknowns out there.

Thanks Jim.

[travrosty]

I go to the mall of america here in bloomington, they have a field of dreams store. they have mantle, williams, dimaggio large signed photos. i dont like the autographs, they are hologrammned by a document examiner and would come with a field of dreams cert.

so someone who is not deep in the hobby might spend a few hundred dollars because as far as they know, they are shopping at a respected place and it has a couple of certs with the item.

[tinkereversandme]

Welcome aboard Jim. Sure low dollar pieces will always find a home (I.E Sauderton outfit) but it's often hard to find good stories when 80-90% (depending) of the product is fraudulent and it doesn't seem like that trend will stop, but grow. Great dealers are being punished for being honest and it doesn't seem like there isn't the interest to start an organization or lead some kind of revolt against the common enemy. It's just going to get worse... IMO.

Regards,

Larry

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I go to the mall of america here in bloomington, they have a field of dreams store. they have mantle, williams, dimaggio large signed photos. i dont like the autographs, they are hologrammned by a document examiner and would come with a field of dreams cert.

so someone who is not deep in the hobby might spend a few hundred dollars because as far as they know, they are shopping at a respected place and it has a couple of certs with the item.

That is scary and I am sure the mall has no idea and probably does not care as long as they pay their rent.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

That is scary and I am sure the mall has no idea and probably does not care as long as they pay their rent.

No, they don't because FOD can always claim the hologrammed item is from someone with "credentials in questioned documents," so the mall will say "what more do you want? can't top that!

[RichardSimon]

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

[Wymers Auction]

Richard I would not guarantee a refund that is not fair to you at all. The auctioneer that states this ridiculous law about you are responsible for payment even if the items are bogus is a complete moron. I think he should call a lawyer and just have him apply a small amount of heat to this auctioneers butt and see what happens. COA's in many cases override the "AS-IS Where is no guarantees impressed or implied" because you have included a piece of paper that implies authenticity. If the auctioneer includes no COA and states it "appears to have been signed" it would be very tough to get a refund. I also feel like he has the burden of proof due to his own negligence to show these are bogus with a credible authenticator. I hope this helps and I am no expert on autos as you know, but I am privy to auction law and know many auctioneers that can help me with an auction law question.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

Which brings me back to the "net54 PAC". Millions of people buy stuff for resale. (I do it a lot. American Pickers INFURIATES me when they buy ONE item out of a box of NOS vintage collectibles ). A tiny percentage are true autograph dealers. We can be of service to many by bringing the heat on a larger scale.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

Makes one wonder how hundreds of times a week stuff like that happens.

It's no different than those people who bought thousands of pieces of horrific crap from AlwaysAtAuction with their advertising reading "Compare At $1800.00" for a Mantle signed piece authenticated by Ted Taylor (TTA/Stat Authentic), Nicholas Burczyk, Chris Morales and Drew Max.

Those buyers then took their purchased autographs and planned to flip them on Ebay and make a killing. I'm sure a few people might have made a small profit on that crap, but after it was discovered, the majority of that crap was removed by Ebay, and shortly thereafter, Ebay placed Chris Morales and Nicholas Burczyk on their "Banned COA" list.

How many of those buyers are holding on to that crap thinking they will pay for college tuition, retirement money, etc.

The source of much of this crap is always looking for new outlets to sell his crap. His crap was pushed off Ebay and then he found some new auction houses. Then he found local charities and local auctions. Then his buddy started to consign that crap to auctioneers all over the country. Everyone thought that things would greatly improve following "Operation Bullpen." That didn't last long. What is going on now is well beyond the "Operation Bullpen" numbers because now you have every Dick and Jane doing their kitchen-table forgeries knowing that the worse that will happen to them is that they get kicked off Ebay. And then you have certain sources of forgeries who seem to have been around forever.

Richard has been doing battle with the forgers longer than I have and it's a never-ending battle. We will win some battles, but we will never win the war because the majority of buyers of autographs are not the sharpest tools in the shed. These are people who are on the outer-circle of us. They will never find us because they aren't interested in finding us. They got their Mickey Mantle signed photo for $50.00 and they are happy until the day comes when they list it on Ebay for $400.00 and it gets removed. Then they will ask themselves "Why did it get removed, it came with a COA from a forensic person."

How does a guy like Chris Morales stay in business authenticating autographs? Buyers!!! Wanna-be collectors equate Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator to shows like NCIS.

How does a guy like Ted Taylor continue to authenticate autographs? Buyers!!!! Ted Taylor is a Philadelphia Athletics historian; he used to work for Fleer.

The other day I sent Ted Taylor the below email:

You're some Philadelphia Athletics historian, Ted.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=325589

How do you sleep at night, Ted? Tell me.

Christopher


All of this continues because of the BUYERS!!!! No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[RichardSimon]

Jim, that is very much what I have been saying on this board for a long time.
But human nature being what it is, the cheap autograph will always find a home.
Whether with an unknowledgable buyer or with a crooked reseller.
The people on the board have been seeing new entities pop up almost every day now, selling bogus items all over the country.
There seem to be new forgers popping up with regularity in addition to the old ones, that we know and despise, who are still around.
(nice to see your recommendation list, about time you paid me off for all the times I have recommended you ).
And as you I rarely buy in auctions for resale but I can recommend Lelands for sports and non sports and Alexander Autographs for non sports.

ps. Did not know you were such a Carlin fan,,, me too, I saw him twice in person at the Beacon Theater on Broadway. What a show he used to put on. RIP.

[JimStinson]

Rich, I was refering to the autograph dealer Richard Simon that lives in Topeka Kansas, not the one in NYC. Its a fairly common name.