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#51
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Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.
You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated. I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far... Cobb Last edited by Bicem; 06-23-2019 at 10:15 AM. |
#52
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If it's the same card, then why is that upper right corner so much rounder in the SGC 5 example?
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#53
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Quote:
Brian |
#54
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I don't know, go ask Gary.
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#55
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Part of the deception. It's the same card, but if someone wants to deny it who really cares at this point.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#56
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Quote:
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#57
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Quote:
SGC, you messed up REAL bad here, and proves all this is less likely TPG fraud than just utter and total incompetence |
#58
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Dealers race to the TPG booths on the early set up day of the National! Why? Because they have a light staff and they want to take advantage of the one day turn around at the National promo price! Not to mention, the grader behind the curtain is most likely one of the new kids working for them where they are taught to spend 30 seconds or less to grade.
__________________
Love Ty Cobb rare items and baseball currency from the 19th Century. |
#59
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#60
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Quote:
My guess, assuming it is the same card, is that whatever is being done to these cards isn't leaving much behind to detect.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
#61
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-23-2019 at 11:30 AM. |
#62
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That Shoeless Joe card was a $22,000 card before work was done on it -- and posters in the Musial thread on here were seriously trying to claim that no one would have the balls to alter a $3,000 card?
__________________
Flawless BST transactions with Wondo, Marslife, arcadekrazy, Moonlight Graham, Arazi4442, wrestlingcardking and Justus. |
#63
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Yah when you've made millions 22K is just a wager you can well afford to lose.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#64
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Quote:
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#65
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In the past...when speaking to people who are not in tune to this hobby who may be pickers...estate liquidators...pawn shop owners...buyers/sellers of silver/gold, etc. These people almost always felt that if PSA says this...or that...then it's fact.
And these people helped to cause the surge in valuations of many cards. Now and in the near future when all these lay-people hear that PSA as well as the other TPG'ers cannot even tell if a card has been altered...that will eliminate many from even participating in the hobby. Prices will plummet...investors will run for the hills. When it's all said and done all that will be left are the collectors. |
#66
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I think David Hall rightly understood on day 1 the market potential for grading not just authenticating. And ironically, they may be better at grading than authenticating at this point.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-23-2019 at 11:55 AM. |
#67
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Most of Corey's cards aren't even graded.
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#68
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Quote:
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#69
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Even if just assigning an Authentic or not opinion without regard to alteration? At least this way people can be more reassured of not buying reprints.
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#70
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Quote:
As an aside I get it, but authentic and altered always sounded like an oxymoron to me.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-23-2019 at 12:03 PM. |
#71
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But most scarce ungraded cards are valued based on the estimated grade they would receive. If the graded card market collapses so will these. I’m here for him, Barry. Consider me a beacon in the fog.
Last edited by oldjudge; 06-23-2019 at 12:08 PM. |
#72
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I am sure Corey is there for you too, Jay.
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#73
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Quote:
"Hey, look at us, we're not complicit, just completely incompetent." |
#74
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Quote:
-Authentic (unaltered) -Authentic (altered) -Rejected (fake) |
#75
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Michael I was thinking the same thing with the Auth alt/unalt but how could we trust them to be able to discern that with all that’s going on.
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#76
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i agree I like the 3 possibilities...but I also have little faith that they can determine.
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#77
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Three possibilities means no Registry and less money. Not happening.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#78
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So what is the recourse. SGC should pay 60k back to the buyer? You guys tell me what should happen as apparently this is going on right now..
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#79
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Quote:
And only Authentic or not, no faith in ability to detect alterations. Won't happen, but this is a grading system I could get behind. |
#80
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If that's what their guarantee states, then yes.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#81
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Quote:
Jeff- Faith in the TPG's is obviously in question in general these days...BUT, I do feel strongly, in this hypothetical situation, that you need to distinguish between Authentic 'Unaltered' & Authentic 'Altered', IMO. Last edited by MVSNYC; 06-24-2019 at 07:36 AM. |
#82
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actually, it is Guaranty
from the Bible (internet) "Guaranty” is the undertaking of an action where one is answerable to another for the payment of a debt by a third person. It can be undertaken for the performance of some specific duty when the other miscarries it"
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#83
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Quote:
https://www.grammar.com/guarantee_vs._guaranty
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2019 at 07:52 AM. |
#84
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He means that guaranty is the word they use in their name. They're quite emphatic about that. But yes, the arrangement under discussion here is a guarantee.
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#85
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sounds like from the others posting on the thread they dont legally owe anything.. . so again what is the recourse for this buyer of this allegedly tainted card and 60k price difference...
Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 06-24-2019 at 08:37 AM. |
#86
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You're a lawyer and you're relying on what anonymous non-lawyers are saying regarding a legal agreement?
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#87
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Quote:
If PSA wont pay him and he doesnt live in California and doesnt want to pay a lawyer because they are too expensive he should just eat the card? Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 06-24-2019 at 09:50 AM. |
#88
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2019 at 09:57 AM. |
#89
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Quote:
You basically said that someone with a 80k card that the bought altered would be willing to wait 3 months to get a decision from a TPG because 'what choice do they have' Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 06-24-2019 at 10:01 AM. |
#90
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no dream weaver
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#91
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because basic logic dictates: they are altered, therefore they are fake
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#92
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#93
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#94
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How about a class action lawsuit. What would you think would be found through Discovery in PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC's files? Probably could ask for SEC files on Collector's Universe as well?
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#95
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I can't recall which thread but I've explained at length why this situation isn't conducive to class action treatment.
As for the SEC, I can't imagine even if investigative files existed which is doubtful you would get them via a subpoena in a civil lawsuit to which the SEC is not a party. Too many issues there to list.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2019 at 11:21 AM. |
#96
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Happily collecting beaters since the 80's.
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#97
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Well, if this card was bleached, a simple test under a black light will be able to pick it up. If that's the case, the grading company (SGC) and or both are in trouble. If I was the buyer, I'd contact a lawyer and the FBI.
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#98
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Whats a reasonable time? Seems like the buyer can submit the evidence of why the card was altered pretty easily and also what the card sold for and what it was bought for....3 months?
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#99
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It would probably vary in my mind by card value. But in any event I would not be in any great rush, I would view litigation as a last resort in a case like this.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2019 at 11:17 AM. |
#100
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As opposed to some of the companies that have happily been beating collectors...
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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