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Johan Santana was pretty nasty for several years in the 00s. Was he the best ever, probably not. He did have a great run that would rival previously mentioned player's best 5 seasons.
Kershaw is pretty amazing as well as far as a player we all have been able to see pitch. I hope there is some baseball still yet to see this year I think Koufax's MLB career might look a little different if he'd had a few years in the minors Great question. I have enjoyed reading the thread. For a World Series or complete season Koufax is a compelling choice. For a career I still love me some Spahn. Last edited by matthew; 07-16-2020 at 04:22 PM. |
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I honestly didn't look into what the poster was saying. Of course,there have been times when having the best stats doesn't mean you're gonna win. The 1960 World Series being an obvious case in point, where the Yankees had 55 runs for the series and the Pirates had 27. |
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Well, if I ever needed a life or death medical opinion, I will take the top Doctors at The Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins... but you should go to a $5 Fortune Teller..... since "opinions are like assholes..." Yes, a bit of a harsh example, but the point is that the quality of an opinion means everything. Statistics have been USED AS A TOOL TO SUPPORT OPINIONS since the beginning of human's ability for creative thinking. So... let's keep arguing, because.... My stats are better than your stats!
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Focusing on Vintage Sports & Non-Sports Photography for over 25 Years. Last edited by Robbie; 07-16-2020 at 07:30 PM. |
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If you go with Koufax, you have to put up with 7 years of mediocrity (54-53 record, which averages fewer than 8 wins a year.) Johnson gives you 5 years of non-greatness. But if you take Grove or Spahn, you have a 20-game winner in their 3rd season, and quality and longevity from then on.
I know Koufax, in his prime, was dominant, but the Dodgers needed the rest of the staff to carry him for the first 7 years of his career. That's a long time to be average, for a guy some want to call the best ever. |
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If you are looking at the entire career, Koufax was not the best ever. And as someone else has said here. Case closed! |
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Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk |
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Wow! People have a lot of very strong opinions. Based on my username, you might think you know my vote. This reminds me of the debates over MVP - what does valuable mean? What does best mean?
Let's put it this way. If you told me that you could take any pitcher at his peak and put him on the mound to win one all-important game - Game 7 of the World Series say - there is only one pitcher I would choose and that is Koufax. If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax. By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game). If you told me that I could have any left handed pitcher for his career to build a team around, well then I would be considering between Grove, Spahn and Randy Johnson. For just one pitch, Sidd Finch! |
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It's tough for me to consider much what any pitcher (or hitter, for that matter) did before 1920. Walter Johnson was clearly the best out there during the last decade of the dead ball era, but it was such a different game when everyone was hitting a voit ball from gym class. And his numbers during the 1920s (when he was in his 30s) were very good, but nothing legendary and a clear step below what Grove and plenty of others did when they were the same age in the live ball era. |
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Tony Biviano |
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No, he doesn't. Or even close. Koufax had an almost identical ERA in his final two years. Pedro's WHIP was better in '99-'00. Pitching in Fenway at the height of the steroid years.
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Also if i am up 8-0, may give up a 4 runs to assure no huge inning to get the win and now my era is higher than that 3-2 game pitcher that always loses.. |
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Y
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Tony Biviano Last edited by cammb; 07-17-2020 at 02:49 PM. |
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There has been a lot of great replies and thoughts to other pitchers, and it's been a fun thread. A lot of my opinion came from key, first ballot HOFers that said Koufax was nearly impossible to hit against in his final 5-6 years of his career, and not just his well known and obvious stats that he had. There are not any other HOFers out there that got into the Hall at age 35 except Koufax. My final thought again is this, in peak and optimum situations, where everything is equal, I'll take him against a strong left handed hitting club, and I would take Bob Gibson against a strong right handed hitting club.... There you have it
Last edited by CMIZ5290; 07-17-2020 at 04:18 PM. |
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I think his induction into the Hall of Fame (the youngest player ever to be inducted) says it all. The writers evidently ignored his first six years and judged him on his last five years. That was a tribute to his dominance
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Tony Biviano |
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No mention of Koufax being a pussy and hanging it up early?
And if you are picking Koufax for your one game, better make sure it doesn't fall on Yom Kippur.....or you better get the bullpen up. The Big Unit all the way! Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 07-17-2020 at 05:28 PM. |
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I'm a huge fan of both Spahn and Koufax, but put me in the Lefty Grove column. |
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I don’t think pee wee Reese ever faced Koufax
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Tony Biviano |
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Koufax was a creature of his home park. Home road splits are insane. It's Waddell for me.
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Here's a nice anecdote from Jane Leavy's book, where she quotes something Pee Wee Reese wrote near the end of his life:
'To be honest about it, I thought the guy would never be a great pitcher. But he sure proved me wrong. When I retired and I was announcing the CBS Game of the Week, I came up to him while he was warming up. And he was really making the catcher's mitt pop. So I went up and asked him, teasing him, "Where in the hell did you learn how to pitch like that? You can't be that damn good." 'He said, "Grab a bat and get your ass up there at the plate." So I did. Here I am standing with a bat in my hand in my street clothes and I never saw anybody throw that hard in my life, and I've faced some of the greatest in the game. He had pinpoint control. I said, "How is your control on the outside part of the plate?" I was amazed. He then said, "Do you want me to show you how good my control is inside?" 'I said, "Hell, no."' |
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To be clear, I don’t think sorting a column by bWAR or fWAR is the proper answer to anything. We do know that many of the newer metrics are more equipped to express what happens on the field that things like Batting Average or how Fielding Percentage skews for and against certain attributes.. Key here is that the bar for usefulness is not 100% accuracy. As the saying goes, “All models are wrong, some are just useful.” What is your specific transparency issue here? Last edited by Greg Sonk; 07-18-2020 at 10:19 AM. |
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You should read a good biography of Koufax. Jane Leavy's is a good start. Koufax was in so much pain - and his teammates could see it - that they were amazed he was able to keep pitching at all. This was before Tommy John surgery. He used so much capiscum that smelled so bad that other players wouldn't want to be around him when he applied it. (Capsicum is what gives peppers their heat.) His left arm was getting malformed from the arthritis. If Sandy was willing, I would wager anything that you would be the "pussy" if he pitched to you, today - and, he is 85 years old. As for Yom Kippur, suffice it to say that Drysdale asked Alston if he didn't wish that he was Jewish too after his outing. Baseball is important, but not that important. Let's give Koufax credit for being true to himself. |
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jgannon --- Great anecdote. Loved it!
Koufax32fan --- Thanks for reminding the uninformed about why Sandy Koufax retired following the '66 season. The increasing pain and what it took to get himself on the mound was frightening. He believed if he continued to pitch, his arm would become deformed or would not function at all. The Dodger's owner and management did not believe him, and treated him shamefully for years afterwards. --- Brian Powell |
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And if your saying he could throw when he is 85 then he should have rested, rehabbed whatever and pitched when he was 32. Terrible mechanics.....could have adjusted, taken stress off the arm and continued on.......nope he quit......reminds me of Barry Sanders. Quitters club. Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 07-18-2020 at 03:29 PM. |
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delete, just not worth it.....
Last edited by CMIZ5290; 07-18-2020 at 05:45 PM. |
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Tony Biviano |
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Careers Ruth Cobb Aaron etc had can be discussed as GREATEST ever!!!!!
A 4 year run????? While tremendous.....hardly can be called greatest of all time. If that's the case Bo Jackson was the Greatest Hitter of All Time. Eric Gagne was the Best reliever. Please! A great 4 years yes, but too many garbage years before that, period! |
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I played semi-professional hacky sack for 10 years.
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Wow, didnt know how qualified you were.
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Yes, Koufax threw much faster than 93 MPH.....Thanks for that info Tom
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Koufax to me is a left handed version of John Clarkson, and you never hear his name mentioned as the Greatest Righty of All Time.
Why? He didn't have the longevity of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson. Need some longevity to be the BEST. Best 4-5 year run probably, best ever.....NO! Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 07-18-2020 at 06:02 PM. |
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Last edited by CMIZ5290; 07-18-2020 at 06:01 PM. |
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What's wrong with Clarkson? HOFer, best pitcher of the 19th century by far.
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Last edited by CMIZ5290; 07-18-2020 at 06:11 PM. |
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Right but Cy Young got the award named after him.....because of the wins.
Compare Clarkson to Young Clarkson 12 years 328 wins Young 22 years 511 wins Had Clarkson pitched 10 more years he passes that 511, and the award is named after him. But he didn't. Not even brought up amongst the greatest........all due to longevity. At that brings us to Mr Koufax, tremendous pitcher no doubt, but the longevity kills him. Just like it did Clarkson in historic context. Sorry Koufax fans, face the facts. |
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Why isn't Smokey Joe Wood considered the Greatest RH-er or even in the discussion????
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...woodjo02.shtml His numbers are as good, if not better, as any for a shorter time frame then Mathewson, Johnson, Feller, Gibson, etc. Why? Longevity. The only reason Koufax is in the conversation is because people have seen him, he's more recent, more video footage, otherwise he's in the same boat as Clarkson and Wood. The "if they only pitched longer, they could be considered the best ever" boat. But they didn't. |
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Longevity.....He had a very similar run to what Koufax had, hell probably better......so you should have said Wood, but the reason you didn't is because the others are considered the best pitchers of their time. Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 07-18-2020 at 07:26 PM. |
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I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.
Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch. I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.) I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded. So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax. |
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(Link to book: https://smile.amazon.com/High-Heat-F...5141568&sr=8-3) * - In 2006, when they made the World Series, they Detroit Tigers had something like 10 or 11 pitchers who could throw 95+. That includes old dudes like Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones (yes, those guys were really clocked at 95+ that year). Last edited by Tabe; 07-19-2020 at 12:57 AM. |
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My vote (posted because I just like lookin at it)
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Lonnie Nagel T206 : 174/520 : 33.5% |
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Great point. Probably the best one made in this thread. |
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Thanks, Brian! Despite some of the silly Koufax detractors on this thread and someone who just "knows" that this is a false story, this story was published by an accomplished and best-selling author, who said that Reese wrote it. It was not hearsay, but something that she saw written by Reese.
And you are correct about Koufax wanting to get out of the game before risking permanent injury to his arm. |
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The 1960's were the first decade to produce 5 300 home run hitters adding Frank Robinson and Willie McCovey. So you get 3 exclusive NL players hitting over 300 in the decade and one who played half the decade in the NL. If you look for 250 Home run hitters you add Ernie Banks, Orlando Cepeda and Frank Howard, and Ron Santo (Billy Williams hit 249) to the ranks of NL players (Howard about half his total as a teammate of Koufax's but making the argument that the league wasn't weak) All of the aforementioned players would have finished top 6 in the 1950's and top 5 in the 1970's in all of MLB. League-wide batting average in the 1940's was .275, 1950's .276, 1960's .272, 1970's .272 and 1980's .273. The average home runs hit by a player in the Majors (approximations since I had to read them off a graph that didn't label it's data points) 1920's 6.8, 1930's 9, 1940's 8.5, 1950's 15.5, 1960's 16.1, 1970's 14.2, 1980's 14.5 This myth that the 1960's was a desert of great hitting league wide is just that. There was, in essence, one anomalous year, at which time Koufax was already retired (can you imagine what he would've done that year???) I'm not saying this makes Koufax the greatest lefty of all time. I am merely pointing out a fallacy that seems to persist for some reason not even remotely backed up by facts.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 07-19-2020 at 07:36 AM. |
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Take a look at Koufax numbers in 1961, his first really good year and the Dodgers last year at LA Memorial Coliseum. He was pretty bad at home and very good on the road. Then look at his home/road splits the next five years. He was very good on the road but put up video game numbers at Dodger Stadium. To be fair the numbers in 1966 were pretty even. But the other four years he was a border line HOF pitcher on the road and the best ever at home.
Larry Walker syndrome. Still a very good player on the road but freakish at home. That doesn't get enough play with Koufax for some reason. The numbers don't lie |
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Frank It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn. Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective. However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season. Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record. Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF. His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Tony Biviano |
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10 years is a plenty ling career to say someone is greatest pitcher of all time.
Not 3 or 4 years. 10 Plenty long enough. |
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Tony I qualified World Series play regarding Lefty Gomez (6 - 0). Koufax W.S. record is 4 - 3. With respect to career numbers Gomez has 189 Wins vs Koufax 165 Wins. I prefaced my story that I was a Koufax fan, since I saw him pitch from 1955 to 1966. Did you see him pitch in real time ? Therefore, I'm not sure what you are saying. And, when you compare numbers between Plank and Koufax, Plank wins the discussion. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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