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  #1  
Old 09-08-2016, 06:07 AM
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Default Graig Kreindler's Chief Bender painting - All Hail the Chief!

Graig Kreindler and I are in the midst of bringing this Chief Bender photo to life in the way only Graig can. We would like to nail down answers to these three questions and would appreciate any assistance you uniform, pin and photo guys can provide.

Bender-sweater-front-watermarked Net 54.jpg

1. When was the photo taken? We believe the 1911 World Series at Shibe Park.
2. What color was the sweater? We believe blue.
3. What is the significance of the ribbon that is tied around the button hole?
We have no clue, except that it helps date it.

As to 1. we believe it very likely it was taken during the 1911 World Series at Shibe Park. That is based on the uniform/cap style, the known Bender meets Meyers photo below from the 1911 World Series where Bender is wearing the same sweater with the same ribbon/string, and the sharp angular bend in stadium concourse behind Bender.

Bender Meyers LOC.jpg
chief_meyers_and_bender.jpg

As to 2. based on replicas that have been offered for sale and the fact that at that time the A's colors were blue, we believe the sweater was a darker shade of blue.

As to 3. we have no clue, hopefully one of you can shed some light.

Any help that can be provided would be greatly appreciated!

Last edited by T206Jim; 01-28-2018 at 10:58 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2016, 07:03 AM
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Is it just me or is the opening size of the elephant's mouth AND the opening size between his first 2 legs different?
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2016, 07:11 AM
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It is just the difference in clarity between a type 1 and other type photos. Note the stitching line on both sweaters above the trunk.

Last edited by T206Jim; 09-08-2016 at 07:12 AM.
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2016, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Please help identify details on this Bender photo for a Graig Kreindler painti

Those are clearly different sweaters.
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2016, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Those are clearly different sweaters.
Agreed. On one, the elephant's trunk points down. On the other, it points back to his body.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2016, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxb View Post
Agreed. On one, the elephant's trunk points down. On the other, it points back to his body.
I think it points to his body on both. I think the ribbon is what's pointing down on the Meyers photo
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2016, 09:53 AM
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Default Same sweater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
Those are clearly different sweaters.
Disagree. The similarities between the 1st & 2nd photos are:

1. Placement of the buttons (specifically the two that are aligned with the elephant.
2. The stitching patterns on the left shoulder & the horizontal line above the truck.
3. The hole on the left arm in photo 1 is faintly visible in photo 2.


Ed - Can you advise why you think they are different?
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Old 09-08-2016, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pherbener View Post
I think it points to his body on both. I think the ribbon is what's pointing down on the Meyers photo
Yea, I think you're right. I stand corrected.
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Old 09-08-2016, 10:41 AM
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They're different logos, at least. Look closely at the elephant's legs, tusks, mouth and tail and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 09-08-2016, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edhans View Post
They're different logos, at least. Look closely at the elephant's legs, tusks, mouth and tail and you'll see what I mean.

Ok thanks. IMO they are more similar then not.
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  #11  
Old 09-08-2016, 11:16 AM
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Thanks for the interest guys. I believe the sweaters are one and the same, but we can each draw our own conclusions.

Does anyone have any information on the questions I have asked? Other photos of Bender in a sweater, copies of mine with a firm date on back or from a dated newspaper? Any info on the ribbon? I believe that although the trim and cap stripes may have been black the sweaters were blue, any confirmation on this?

Thanks!
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  #12  
Old 09-08-2016, 12:00 PM
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I took a look at the New York Times archives to see what I could learn. Unfortunately I didn't see anything that suggested why Bender was wearing a ribbon on his sweater or what the colors would have been. Only thing I found of interest was the usage of the same Bender image (cropped) in the October 25, 1911 edition which followed game four.

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Old 09-08-2016, 02:57 PM
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I'm sure you did the same web search that everyone reading this thread is now doing. The only relevant image that appears is a Mitchell & Ness version of a very similar sweater (the elephant is positioned at a distinct angle that isn't consistent with your photo, etc.). Their sweater is dark blue. Perhaps you can find a way to contact them and ask how and why they determined the color of the 1911 sweater to be that shade of blue?
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  #14  
Old 09-08-2016, 03:31 PM
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This is without a doubt the longest sweater discussion I've ever read, much less a sweater with an elephant on it.

At this point, should we call Guinness or call for a Guinness?
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  #15  
Old 09-08-2016, 04:56 PM
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Darron, thanks for the note about the sweater color, I saw that and will follow up with reproduction company.

David, your post with the October 25, 1911 NYT coverage is very enlightening, perhaps even more so than you thought. Chief Bender did pitch and win Game 4 on October 24th in Shibe Park. The Bender cropped shot of my photo attributes it to American Press Association. Of particular relevance is the back of my Type 1 photo showing a period American Press Association stamp.

Bender-sweater-back-crop.jpg

Here is the enlarged cropped shot of Bender as well as the adjoining Game 4 action shot also attributed to American Press Association.

NYT-10-25-1911-Bender-crop.jpg NYT-10-25-1911---game-action.jpg

I checked the NYT for all "day after" recaps of each of the six World Series games. It was a similar format for each day and predominately displays day of game photos attributed to American Press Association.

At the very least we can say the Bender photo was taken no later than October 25, 1911. While it may have been a file photo, I believe there is a distinct possibility my photo was taken October 24th on the day he pitched and was contemporaneous with the other game action photos the American Press Association provided to the NYT for use.

A couple of great tips, keep them coming!

Last edited by T206Jim; 09-08-2016 at 04:59 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-08-2016, 05:40 PM
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I don't know if it will help, but I found this link that talks about the different sweaters. I didn't read it all and thought I would just post it for you.

www.uni-watch.com/2010/11/10/sweater-weather/

Also, I found the below image while searching, which actually took me to the above link. Here is a link to the photo: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/...d32aa131_o.jpg

And then there is this, which does show some colors, but not of your photo: http://origin-sp.global.ralphlauren....baseball.aspx?

Here's an artists rendition of the colors: http://fineartamerica.com/featured/1...e-dininno.html

And my guess on the ribbon tied to the button.......it is not a ribbon, but a frayed string tied to a pencil that he kept in the sweater, which is causing the line to appear in the sweater above the elephant.

Good luck in your quest.

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  #17  
Old 09-08-2016, 06:30 PM
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Also, with the 1910 Championship being shown in blue, my guess is that it matched the colors of the sweaters and hat lines.

https://vintages-antiques-collectibl...-collectibles/
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2016, 07:48 PM
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I had a little bit of time, and thought I'd try to help...

Found this colored drawing online...might help, as it seems like the artist had some prior knowledge of the color being Blue.

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/1...e-dininno.html

More info pointing towards Blue...

http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/lis...hia_Athletics/

http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/vie...ame-Worn_Photo

Scroll down, actual sweater on right in showcase (dark Blue?)

https://philadelphiatale.wordpress.c...ics-a-history/
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2016, 10:09 PM
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I think the dark blue is the most likely color based on the evidence.

Also, those are unquestionably the same sweater in all photos...unquestionably.

The ribbon does seem to be securing something in the sweater. As to what? No idea.
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Old 09-08-2016, 11:20 PM
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Jim (T206Jim):

wish I could contribute something (anything?) technical-wise, but...my personal knowledge in those respects is historically - and severely - limited.

looking forward to seeing the photo "Kreindlerized" - the finished product I'm sure will be awesome, and the progressive updates, of course, are appreciated by many of us as well.


awesome photo - great choice.

DS
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:55 AM
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Thanks for all the contributions, they are very helpful.

Here is a cropped version of a 1911 "Champions" bi-fold postcard which was likely taken just after the end of the 1911 A.L. season, based on a postmark of 10-24-11 which was before the World Series was over (discussed on another thread here). It appears he is wearing the same sweater but buttoned up and without the ribbon. Interesting to note here and in "coming onto the field" shot shown above how haphazard the elephant locations are on the sweaters.

AL-Champs-postcard.jpg
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  #22  
Old 09-17-2016, 07:06 AM
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An update on what I've learned.

I have confirmed that the sweaters were indeed a dark blue.

I have confirmed that the Bender/Meyers photo, with the same ribbon strand, was taken at the Polo Grounds before Game 3.

It is extremely likely my Bender photo is from Game 4 on October 24th at Shibe Park. I found multiple October 25th articles with the photo and can find no articles showing it prior to that time.

The only evidence I have found of what was attached to the ribbon is this blurry clipping showing some sort of white object tied with the ribbon at the top buttoned button of his sweater. This photo was possibly taken of him while he was coaching third base during Game 2.

Bender-with-ribbon-attached-to-white-object.jpg

Also, here is cropped closeup of ribbon.

Ribbon-closeup.jpg

So here is my challenge. I'll offer $50 to anyone who can find a photo showing or evidence describing what was attached to that ribbon. I'll also offer $50 to anyone who can provide me with a copy of my Bender photo dated or published before the start of the 1911 World Series or proof it was indeed taken on October 24th.

Thanks for the help.
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  #23  
Old 09-17-2016, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac_bunt View Post
Ok thanks. IMO they are more similar then not.
similar doesn't cut it they have to be identical. They are, to me, clearly not the same logo. The gap between the front legs is VERY different. The distance between the lower tusk and the jaw is VERY different. The length of the upper portion of the trunk is significantly different. You can't have the same sweater with ANY discrepancies let alone ones this large.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:58 PM
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In Glory of Their Times there is a pic of Bender in this sweater if someone wants to scan it.
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  #25  
Old 09-17-2016, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
similar doesn't cut it they have to be identical. They are, to me, clearly not the same logo. The gap between the front legs is VERY different. The distance between the lower tusk and the jaw is VERY different. The length of the upper portion of the trunk is significantly different. You can't have the same sweater with ANY discrepancies let alone ones this large.
Here is the explanation:
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:57 PM
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Thanks for the insight Mark. You more clearly and definitively stated the point I attempted to make earlier about the difference being in the clarity of the photos. Would SABR happen to have any other photos from 1911 of Bender, or any other Athletic for that matter, in a sweater with a ribbon or anything else tied to a buttonhole?
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:24 PM
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Jim - Not that I know of.
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Old 09-18-2016, 05:42 AM
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Very cool Mark, I LOVE learning things like this! Also didn't notice it before, but there is an obvious hole in his left sleeve (the right as we look at it) in the clearer photo. You can actually JUST make out the hole in the "bloomed" photo. If you look up from the speck of white on his sleeve and a little bit to the right there it is, in exactly the same spot relative to the shoulder seam.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:12 AM
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Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but wouldn't the HoF be a good resource? Surely they at least have pictures (hopefully with descriptors) from that Series, and possibly even a uniform.
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:25 PM
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Ironically, I did hear back today from the HOF curators and although they were intrigued and did some digging they were not able to provide any answers about the ribbon.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:16 AM
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Time for an update. Here is the framed Type 1 photo display that will ultimately accompany Graig's painting. The Bender shot is from the 1911 World Series and was taken by the American Press Association. The A's shot was taken by George Grantham Bain and is also from the 1911 World Series. I'll keep everyone updated as we near completion of the project.

Bender-photo-framed-APA-web.jpg
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:35 PM
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It is sweater weather and mine is on its way!

Chief_Bender_1911_October_24.jpg
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:36 PM
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Of course I am biased, but I think this is one of Graig's finer works!
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:40 PM
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Beautiful

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  #35  
Old 01-03-2018, 09:59 PM
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WOW............very nice!!
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:01 PM
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Truely enjoying this thread. So much knowledge and scrutiny, quite educational. Thanks for sharing everyone.
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  #37  
Old 01-03-2018, 10:16 PM
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Great painting and thread. I too believe the ribbon is a piece of string fastening a pencil to his sweater for use in recording coaching notes.
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:34 AM
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It was well worth the wait!!
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  #39  
Old 01-04-2018, 06:48 AM
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Damn! That's nice!
Graig is the best there is
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:55 AM
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Beautiful painting.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:55 AM
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Unbelievable is not a strong enough word. Maybe one of his best paintings ever. I truly mean that.
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  #42  
Old 01-04-2018, 02:10 PM
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Wow... you can just feel the texture of that thick wool sweater (fuzz and all!)

Perfectly executed, and one of Graig's best. A masterpiece!
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  #43  
Old 01-04-2018, 08:36 PM
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Graig Kreindler
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Thank you so much for all of those kind words, everybody!! I'm thrilled that y'all dig what you've seen in the scan. I hope Jim loves it even more once it's in hand, which should be in a few days.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:44 PM
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Paul Herbener
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Absolutely beautiful! Graig is the best out there!!
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:28 PM
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Mark
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Nice - and the elephant is particularly well-done
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:33 PM
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Beautiful!
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:35 PM
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Jeff
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WOW, what a beautiful piece!
Congrats!!!

This silk which is essentially contemporary to the photo seems to show that the sweaters were dark blue as painted.

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Old 01-06-2018, 12:15 PM
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Thanks for posting that Jeff, Graig and I did a lot of research to get the color right.
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:27 PM
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Greg, the painting is wonderful; the colors, textures and, to me, the steely gaze of the Chief all blend together in a beautiul tapestry. I bet you have a buyer already.
As far as the ribbon is concerned, perhaps it is a condom, or perhaps a tribute
ribbon to Geronimo who was captured by the US Cavalry not that many years before.
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:41 AM
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All hail the Chief! Kreindler and Bender!

The painting depicts 1911 and the frame dates to that era.

It is difficult to get a good shot that reflects the splendor that is apparent to the naked eye, but here a couple of photos.

Final Frame 1.jpg

Final-Frame-4-web.jpg
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