Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Johnphotoman]

I said it before…but my apologies to Ted Z, and his family and friends. Every time I start going over the information we have on the Bond Bread cards, I think about Ted Z and how I might be throwing dirt on his legacy.

Like I said Ted Z had an agenda, “his way or the highway.” Thanks to Yoda, I realized it was not an agenda but a debate. Did he get something's wrong? Yes, we all do, but as Yoda said, “on those rare occasions when he was shown he might have erred, he was happy to add it to his broad knowledge base”.

I believe if Ted Z was here with us today he would be happy to add his broad knowledge to this debate and follow the information wherever it leads us. Thanks to all, Happy New Year : John.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Yoda: I don’t remember what answer I gave before, I believe the cards that have printed backs were for sale, not in boxes and not inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. The card with blank backs and rounded corners is either a card that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread: if it has a cream white back. On the other hand, if the card has a bright white back it is from…Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects which came in boxes. Interestingly enough the Sport star Subjects cards started coming out in the 1930s. John

John, tks for the clarification. My Rizutto has a cream white back and rounded corners, so I am assuming it went into loaves of Bond Bread. Regardless, I am happy to have both my 1947 Bond Bread rookies confirmed as inserts. Now that I know the facts, thanks to you, Butch and Ray, I am just going to enjoy the cards as part of my PC. John

[Exhibitman]

I think we're getting a little circular and confusing here in regard to Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) products, so let's just clarify:

1. ESCO made it own cards. See the Groucho original art and card in an earlier post. It did not contract for others' designs, like Aarco.

2. ESCO was not a commercial printing house. On occasion, it would specially print backs on its cards for commercial clients. Dad's Cookies, for example. The only known deviation from that is the Wrigley Field set of alltime greats made in the 1960s for sale at the ballpark. That was at a point when the company was circling the toilet and was desperate.

3. ESCO's main trade was selling vending machines and restocks for those machines. The cards had to fit the machines. It did not vary card sizes because [drumroll please] different sizes would foul the machine mechanisms. When ESCO acquired the card business of the International Mutoscope Reel Company (aka "Mutoscope") in the late 1940s, it reshot the Mutoscope designs to fit its machines. Here is a comparison:



ESCo on the left, Mutoscope on the right.

There are some 1950s ESCO cards with Mutoscope PC backs:



My hunch is that these were made with old card stock that ESCO had from its Mutoscope acquisition and decided to use; waste not, want not.

4. There is no way that the "Bond Bread Exhibits" were made by or for ESCO machines. The stock and size are wrong. I do not think they are Mutoscope products either, because the size and stock are wrong for those machines. There are many arcade-style cards that ESCO and Mutoscope did not make. Whether they were vendable in ESCO or Mutoscope machines is an open question. Some examples:




E282 Oh Boy Gum, a Goudey point-of-sale handout:





Coney Island Arcade, made to use in the arcade's many Mutoscope machines after IMRCo was kaput:



1962 Kennywood (Pittsburgh) Amusement Park:



Pacific Ocean Park (pirated ESCO design):



Anonymous 1920s design, poss. Philadelphia area:

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you- That was very informative and clarified what I was confused about. What size cards did they make for their vending machines? Very nice scans of the images. John.

[Johnphotoman]

As we now understand, identifying all cards that we as collectors call “Bond Bread” is not accurate. These cards are in the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as W571. So what is a legitimate Bond Bread card?

For all intended purposes as Ted Z pointed out in his post, (1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards?) …only cards that were packaged into loaves of bread should get that distinction- 48 cards in a complete set with rounded corners.

One problem in the standard catalog is some cards that look similar to the Bond Bread 48 card set - were never packaged in loaves of Bond Bread. i.e. squared corner cards. These cards have been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards along with others.

Let’s put all that aside for now, and just focus on the square corner cards. One question keeps coming to mind! Can we know when the square corner cards were issued? We know the Bond Bread cards came out in 1947. There is this belief that cards similar to the Bond Bread were issued after 1947, (a set of 24 cards with square corners.)

While it is true the 24 card set was never packaged in Bond Bread and has been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread". I still have a question: How was this set given an issued date sometime after 1947? Somehow this set of 24 cards has an issued date circa 1950s. What proof is there that all square corner cards were issued after 1947? On the contrary there is proof that some of these cards were issued circa 1940s.

While there were a lot of cards issued by Wildman Sons (W.S.), circa 1950s we call Trading cards. (Which I will be posting about in an upcoming post.) And yes, many of these cards fit the description of the “Square Corner” Bond Bread cards, but that does not mean they were issued in the 1950s.

Here is the kicker…the 24 card set and the 48 card set used the same images on the cards. And we have old-timers who have said they brought their cards that match the 24 card set with square corners right from arcades circa 1940. While it is true that many collectors speculate that they were dispensed in arcades, similar to Exhibit cards of the era all before 1947, has not changed the issue date of circa 1950s.

Knowing this information, many collectors will say the 24 card set was issued in the 1950s. The issued date of circa 1950s goes against first hand knowledge, eyewitness accounts. To top it all off, there are articles that say the 24 card set and many Trading cards were issued circa 1947.

Like the SABR's Baseball Cards Research Committee articles. “In 1947 another set is produced containing 24 of the baseball players found in the Homogenized Bread set, plus four boxers. The cards have square corners and are printed on thinner stock.”

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/author/bouton56/page/9/

Many of these Trading cards- where Movie Stars, Western Stars, Baseball Players, Boxers, Football Players, Golfers) were issued before 1947 with square corners, before Wildman Sons (W.S.) issued their cards in the 1950s.

And there is no doubt that these Trading cards were never issued as Bond Bread cards, but that is what they are known by in collecting circles (“Bond Bread”) so for now let’s just call them that.

What I can say is the 24 card set was issued sometime between the 1940s and 1950s. I believe they were circa 1947. One problem is so many cards with square corners came out circa 1950s and fit in with many of the Bond Bread cards- I believe this is why people put an issue date of 1950 on the 24 card set.

As for the David Festberg find in the 1980s, square corners cards that match the 24 card set, it is now believed that are not reprints but are cards that actually were printed in 1947. Another reason I believe the 24 card set was printed and issued circa 1947.

This does not mean there are no fakes or reprints that were done at another time. In fact, I just picked up a Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint. I don’t know much about it, only that the eBay seller said it was a licensed reprint. Waiting for it to arrive, so I can have a good look. Does anyone know more about 1947 license reprints, what year were they reprinted etc?
John.

[Johnphotoman]

butchie t : I know you have asked some of the same questions about the Baseball Card Society letter,( BCS). The same letter you brought you cards from.

The letter says: "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Butch we know your cards have white backs, therefore I believe your cards to be from the original 1947 square card print. It also appears that the 48 card set from BCS is the same as the 48 Bond Bread set, round corner cards (die-cut cards). Both of these sets, square and round, were produced and issued in 1947. Now on top of that it is believed that the Festberg cards were also produced in 1947.

So many questions:

OK, BCS purchased the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set from a dealer's window. If only we could find out who that dealer was? How did it become that the 24 card set from BCS was the exact same cards as the 24 card set from the Festberg find?

Did BCS pick the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set... because they did not like the 24 card set (Festberg)cards? BCS had to be looking for cards to sell. Just maybe BCS saw the 24 card set, but because of the paper stock and the print quality pick 24 cards out of that 48 card set. So it is possible they did see the cards from the 24 card set from Festberg but liked the 24 cards from the 48 card set better. Could this be why the two sets have the same Images. That was a mouth full to say, I hope I made my point.

Why does the 24 set (Festberg) match the 24 cards from BCS? Why and when did the 24 card set (Festberg find) get issued? Wait, I should ask, when they were printed? Because they were never issued. Why were only 24 cards out of the 48 card set printed? If it was a 48 card set to begin with, meaning was the Festberg find a 48 card set? We know from the BCS letter - it was a 48 card set.

Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set.

Why even a 48 card set? A 48 card set was the standard number of a trading card set. This is most likely because of the printing process and the size of the press that was used to print trading cards. The size of the press determined how many cards would be laid-out and ganged up on a printing plate. Meaning 48 cards were printed on one sheet of paper. Thus, if you ran 5,000 sheets of paper through the printing press, you would have yielded 48 cards of 5,000 each, producing 240,000 total cards.

My assessment of why a 24 card issue: It could have been a licensing issue. But I believe it is because a 24 card set would be cheaper and easier to produce. Most likely they were run on a smaller printing press, one that would produce 24 cards on a sheet of paper. Therefore if the prees run was 5,000 sheets of paper, it would yield 5000 cards of 24, producing 120,000 cards total.

I do have some questions! If BCS picked the 24 best cards out of the 48 card set: How did they decide what was the best of the best of 48? Where are the other 24 cards with white backs? We only see the same old square cards whether they come from BCS or Festberg cards. Somebody had to collect the other 24 names in the 48 white backs square set. I have seen some of the cards out there but come few and far in between and come at a higher price. It may be because usually these cards are slabbed and graded by grading companies. John

[Johnphotoman]

Going back to post 155 from this thread, I received the card from the seller's description: “ Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint.”

No licensed reprint…they do not exist, after some investigating the seller said he just posted what the person said about the card he brought it from. After careful review, the card fits the description of the Festberg find.

butchie t - you and I have talked about Alan Rosen. I received the card from the seller who said, “These cards are all original. They came directly from the Alan Rosen Warehouse Find. They ARE NOT the reprints that were made in the 1980's. Those have different colored backs”.

I believe you do not believe there was an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread. I do not want to put words in your mouth, if you can, tell us about what you know About Alan Rosen and Bond Bread.


I have not found any proof of an Alan Rosen find that included any Bond Bread cards. The card I received from the seller - that was to come from the Alan Rosen find with different color backs…wait for it, the card fits the Festberg find.

Understand that I have found no proof of a Rosen Bond Bread find or reprints made in the 1980s, or any other time for that matter.
If anyone knows about or heard about an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread, or reprints, please post your story.

I brought the two cards above hoping to find out what I believe the cards would tell me what they were. I believed that the cards would be from the Festberg find. I was right, sometimes you just have to have the cards in your hands. When I put these cards away I will have a great story to tell about them. It is not a complete waste if you buy cards like these, if you like to tell the story behind how you acquired the cards and why. I will sometimes buy cards that I know the story behind them is wrong. Does anybody else do this?

I also picked up two fakes, to show what to look for in copy fakes. Notice there is no dot pattern, one you get from half-tone printing. These are not reprints from a previous printed card, but copies. See examples. They are on the wrong paper, and were made to look old and distressed. Believe me you can tell the paper stock is wrong just by touching it. We all heard stories of how fake cards were soaked in coffee to make them look old, these cards look like there certainly were. Again when I put these cards away, I will have a great story to tell about them.

Item description from the seller: “1947/49 Bond Bread Bob Elliott, Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Bob Elliott. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.”

Item description from the seller: 1947/49 Bond Bread Ken Keltner Indians. Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Ken Keltner. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.

The Seller said, “Collectors should note that while many cards in this set have rounded corners or a “stop sign shaped cut”, a second version of these cards exist with solely square corners, which is the one pictured. The square corner cards are equally authentic. Cards for the baseball players and the boxers can be found with both variations. See pics for reference.”

“I am not a professional grader or appraiser. I CANNOT GUARANTEE AUTHENTICITY. This is data I have acquired from research and talking to people in the Vintage space I trust.”

I cannot say if the seller understood the cards were fake, but look out for how cards are described. Saying 1949 is a dead giveaway, looking old is also something to watch for.

I will say the seller did a very good job on packing and shipping the card. He took great care, therefore I don't believe he is selling fakes on purpose. John

[butchie_t]

John,

My comment regarding Al Rosen is based on the fact that if Al Rosen would have found anything that had to deal with a find that had the potential for them being related to Homogenized Bond Bread cards, he would have basically shouted it from the rooftops....and he would have run that find to ground over the course of the months following that find (or purchase).

So the dearth of any information regarding Al Rosen and a cache of 'Bond Bread' cards leads me to my belief that Al and these cards have no association with each other.

I will be more than happy to retract my position on this if any proof were to be presented......I just do not believe that any association will ever come to light.

Regards.

Butch

[Johnphotoman]

Very well said, I agree 100%. John

[Johnphotoman]

In Post 156- I made a lot of wild accusations, just theory mine you. I was hoping to get some reaction from that post. I wanted to start up a conversation, because not as many people are interacting with this post as I believe they would.

There has to be more people like Ted Z, who has collected the 48 card set, the set that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. If so please post pictures, I have never seen all the images on the cards, I sure would like to. There has to people who collected the 24 card set before the Festberg find. People with first hand knowledge.

Haven said that - the wild accusation I thought would get the most attention was…”Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set?”

Stop and think about it, the BCS set was not for sale until the 1990s, although the set was produced in 1947. There is no way the printer or people who had the cards produced, would have known that BCS picked the best 24 cards out of a 48 card set. Understand I have found no connection between the 24 card set issued in 1947 or the Festberg find, to the BCS issues.

The theory that the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set believed that it would be easier and cheaper to sell a 24 card set over a 48 card is believable. That is one theory we can understand as to why a 24 card set was produced in the first place. John

[Johnphotoman]

As many of you know this post is a work in progress, it is a living breathing post the final assessment has not been made. Understand as new information comes in, theories and thoughts in this post can change.

New information has come to my attention to where I have to make a retraction: I posted to Pat R in post 149 of this thread; the cards in question would be placed in the "Festberg" find because of the backs, based on the information we had at the time.

Quote: “Pat: What we now know teaches that the images in post #53 of the old thread (cards of your friend) are from the Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram. It could be the same set… from the letter from The Sporting News from the 1980s…from Stanley Apfelbaum see post 140 in this thread.”

With the help of butchie t we were able to determine we cannot place the cards from post #53 from Pat R in the old post from Ted Z, in the category of the "Festberg" find.

What we had discover - the backs of the cards from: the Festberg find, butchie t cards from, the Baseball card society letter, cards I bought that were believed to be from the Festberg find, cards I bought from a collector who collected the cards circa 1940s first hand…all have the same backs.

Therefore what we can say, is the cards from Pat R: are circa 1940s and could come from any of the above sets. As to date, the above cards should be categorized square trading cards under the umbrella of “Bond Bread” cards, not inserted into loaves of bread, circa 1940s.

Images below 1st card from a collector who collected circa 1940s, 2nd card believed form Festberg find, 3rd from scan from BCS from butchie t, 4th from what is believed from the 24 cards set issued circa 1940s. - 1950s.
John.

[Johnphotoman]

butchie t- Sorry I did not mean to speak for you. If you can explain what you have discovered about the cards mentioned above. Do you agree with the assessment I made on them? Thanks John.

[butchie_t]

John,

Don’t worry about me and our conversations. Feel free to post anything you deduce from them. And post any pictures as well.

I’ll cobble together my findings over the next couple of days. Other ‘irons’ in the fire at the moment.

Cheers,

Butch.

[Johnphotoman]

Butch: Was kind enough to send images of his cards. First card believed from the Festberg find, middle card Bond Bread card, third card from Baseball Card Society. Notice- Festberg find and the BCS have the same ivory backs while the Bond Bread card has a cream white back. John

[Johnphotoman]

I was doing a Google search on David Festberg and this generated AI information popped up. I never heard that he reportedly found a significant collection of rare baseball cards. Has anyone else?

AI Overview: The "Festberg Find" refers to a significant collection of rare baseball cards discovered by David Festberg, a prominent early baseball card dealer, which included a particularly valuable Honus Wagner T206 card considered one of the "Holy Grails" of sports memorabilia; this find is notable for its historical significance and the high auction prices the cards commanded when sold later on.

Key points about the Festberg Find: Discovery:

David Festberg, who ran one of the first dedicated baseball card stores in Brooklyn, reportedly found the collection, including the Wagner card, in an old paper bag while purchasing a batch of cards from another dealer.
Significance of the Wagner card:
The Honus Wagner T206 card is considered one of the most valuable baseball cards due to its scarcity, with only a few known examples remaining.

Impact on the market:
The Festberg Find's sale at auction significantly increased the market value of the Wagner card, setting a new benchmark for prices achieved by rare baseball cards.

Legacy:

The story of the Festberg Find is often cited as a prime example of the thrill and potential for high rewards within the world of antique card collecting.
Rare Ty Cobb Baseball Cards Found In Old Paper Bag Help Smash Honus Wagner Auction Record May 4, 2016. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

Read whole article:

https://collectrea.com/archives/2016...r-honus-wagner



David Festberg, a very noted (and colorful!) collector and dealer from Brooklyn, New York, who was extremely active in the hobby for several decades beginning in the 1970s. Festberg was one of the very first dealers to regularly run auctions in Sports Collector's Digest, and in February 1993, he announced in a full-page advertisement his intention to offer up for auction his personal example of the legendary Wagner card. The card, according to Festberg's ad, was purchased at the Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, show in 1986 for full asking price from a dealer on the show floor who was representing a "well known collector." Festberg kept the card in his personal collection until making the decision to offer a T206 Honus Wagner for auction in the SCD. Thanks John.