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  #151  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:36 AM
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Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharleyBrown View Post
The white border auto promo card was first distributed in June 1947 in NYC (and I believe outside of NYC, specifically Baltimore and DC - but I will confirm that in a few weeks once my schedule frees up and I have time to go through my last bit of research material).

While I am not sure an exact release date for either can be pinned down, Ted Z will likely be able to confirm whether or not the die-cut / rounded corners set of 44 was available prior to June 1947.

It should also be noted that, in addition to both the white facs. auto and the die cut set of 44 card, Jackie did have another card come out in 1947 - the Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card. That card, however, was distributed in September, 1947.
Thanks Shaun! I'm anxiously awaiting input from Ted (or anyone for that matter) regarding his knowledge of the release of these two cards. Just trying to establish which was his absolute first card, if that is even possible.
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  #152  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:27 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hi Dan

I recall being in school in 1947 when us kids were comparing the BOND BREAD regular issue (48) cards. So, that timeframe could have been in the
Spring of 1947 (or the Fall of 1947).

As I have mentioned, the Jackie Robinson cards were never marketed in my town (Hillside, NJ); therefore, I cannot provide a timeline for this issue.


TED Z
.
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  #153  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:37 AM
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Dan,

It might be worth exploring some old newspapers / publications from 1947 to determine whether it was the fall or spring of '47.

I do know that many of the '47 BB set of 44 pictures came from team photo packs from 1947, so it might be worth exploring when those were made available by the teams. I would believe that the cards were distributed after the team photo packs were, since the photo pack images appear to be the source of the BB photos.
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  #154  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Dan

I recall being in school in 1947 when us kids were comparing the BOND BREAD regular issue (48) cards. So, that timeframe could have been in the
Spring of 1947 (or the Fall of 1947).

As I have mentioned, the Jackie Robinson cards were never marketed in my town (Hillside, NJ); therefore, I cannot provide a timeline for this issue.


TED Z
.
I can't believe you cant remember for sure Ted, it was only 70 years ago! So unless someone recalls or has evidence that these cards were issued prior to June, it sounds like maybe the only way to confirm which came first would be to determine the exact date that Jackie signed on with Bond Bread. If it was early in the year it would at least leave the window open for the regular issued set of 48 cards being released in Spring of 1947 (which might make sense with spring training and a new season approaching), whereas, if he signed on closer to mid-year it would exclude the possibility of the release of the 48 card set in the Spring of '47 (unless they were issued at different times throughout the season), and lend support to the white-bordered Bond Bread Promo card being the first issued card (in June).
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  #155  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharleyBrown View Post
Dan,

It might be worth exploring some old newspapers / publications from 1947 to determine whether it was the fall or spring of '47.

I do know that many of the '47 BB set of 44 pictures came from team photo packs from 1947, so it might be worth exploring when those were made available by the teams. I would believe that the cards were distributed after the team photo packs were, since the photo pack images appear to be the source of the BB photos.
Good idea! I will look into that and update you if I discover anything worthwhile.
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  #156  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:09 AM
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Hey guys,

I have the 1947 NEW YORK YANKEES team photo pack; and when I get home I'll check it out. My point here is that Joe Gordon
is pictured in a Yankees uniform in the 48 card set.
However, he was traded for Allie Reynolds to the Indians in Oct 1946.

Therefore, this may imply that this set was issued early in 1947.

NEW YORK YANKEES
--------------------
JOE DiMAGGIO
LARRY BERRA
JOE GORDON
CHARLIE KELLER
JOHNNY LINDELL
PHIL RIZZUTO
AARON ROBINSON


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-20-2017 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #157  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:49 AM
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Default Early 1947 thoughts

Along the lines of Ted's thinking, I have always looked at George Birdie Tebbetts as the "swing factor". He appears in his catcher gear, but I believe is wearing his Detroit uniform underneath (as the cursive D sticks out). Birdie was traded by the Detroit Tigers to the Boston Red Sox for Hal Wagner on May 20, 1947. This adds some credence to the "early 1947" release of the 48-card set.

Dave
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  #158  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceDocter View Post
Have read this thread today with interest. I remember the cards being for sale back in the late 70s in an ad in the Trader Speaks but passed on them as I had a feeling they were NOT originals at the time. Interestingly, I bought about 40 or so 8 x 10 black and white poster-like inserts(?) of the same players and poses at the Saturday Flea market where back in the day you could still make some cool finds.... still have them buried in a box somewhere, I remember Ted Williams, Joe Louis, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Phil Rizzuto, Stan Musial, Bob Feller and a few others.... they were on a soft paper looked to be from the 40s or 50s..... same poses and signatures..... any info on these? Blank backed .... no manufacturer anywhere. They do have borders on them unlike a lot of the cards Ive seen.
They are from a 1940s multisport pack. Here are a few:




This Graziano is not one of the bread cards but he was a major personality in the late 1940s:



I've also had FB players Johnny Lujack and Doc Blanchard, and Bob Feller.
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  #159  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:51 PM
NiceDocter NiceDocter is offline
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YES thank you ExhibitMan those are the ones! Now that you mention, I seem to remember a few football as well.... maybe Glenn Davis? I will post a list of what I have when I dig em out! Thanks again for posting.
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  #160  
Old 05-05-2017, 10:12 PM
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Hi Ted,

Not sure if this is the thread http://www.network54.com/Forum/52660...Navy+Ships+set where you got that picture of the "Navy Ships"box. The post by Troy Kirk shows a box that contains movie star cards with the clipped/rounded corners.

You suggested in this thread the corners were clipped/rounded on the baseball issue for inserting with the bread so would you conclude that these movie stars cards may have been distributed the same way and would that make these a 1947 issue as well?

Thanks,
Greg
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  #161  
Old 05-06-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botn View Post
Hi Ted,

........ The post by Troy Kirk shows a box that contains movie star cards with the clipped/rounded corners.

You suggested in this thread the corners were clipped/rounded on the baseball issue for inserting with the bread so would you conclude that these movie stars cards may have been distributed the same way and would that make these a 1947 issue as well?

Thanks,
Greg

Hi Greg

I don't recall saying the cards of the Movie Stars issue had "rounded corners". The 12-card box (with Lucille Ball) shown that you are alluding to contains square-cornered cards.
The window of this box has beveled corners (not the cards in it). Here are some of my Movie Stars cards. My research indicates that these cards were issued circa 1949-1950.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 04-08-2020 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Added imageevent scans.
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  #162  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:52 PM
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Hi Ted,
That is my point. The link I included in my post to you contained a post by Troy who has these movie star cards in box and the cards have rounded/clipped corners. The movie star cards you showed do not.

Here is a picture of a friend's boxed sets. These cards all have clipped/rounded corners. In fact he listed the singles on ebay. Here is a link to one of the cards that came out of those boxes. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Judy-Garland...4AAOSwdI9Y8Twg
Thanks,
Greg
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  #163  
Old 05-06-2017, 04:20 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Greg

I have to tell you this....I'm somewhat suspicious of these Movie Stars cards. Here is the seller's comments..........


" I will be breaking down a full 48 card high grade set ..this set is hard to find in any condition let alone in such exceptional shape.

This is the only set i've ever had of these cards and i've only seen a few singles pop up here and there.

At the end of the card listings i'll be listing the original 4 colored boxes in separate auctions...don't miss out on those ever rarer boxes.

These cards were issued in the late 1940s or early 1950s by A.J. Wildman & Son Titled "Screen Star Subjects"

card measures; 21/4 x 3 7/16 " with blank backs...the backs are clean unless specified.

These cards are seem very similar to the Bond Bread cards made of sports cards which were made in 1947 and fetch a pretty penny.

Please examine scans and ask questions...i will point out any flaws not seen on the scan.

After some discussion in the hobby it appears these may in fact be Bond Bread cards.

They are the same size,card stock,shape as the Baseball cards issued in 1947 which also were issued in 12 card boxes.
"



I don't know of anyone who pulled Movie Star cards out of Bond Bread loaf packages in 1947. Furthermore, the beveled corners of his
Movie Stars are unlike those of the original 1947 BB cards (whose corners were factory die cut). And, it absolutely does NOT make any
sense (if these cards were marketed in the 12-card packs) for them to have beveled corners.

Something does not jive here. Unless they were hand trimmed to resemble the 1947 issue, so he (or someone) could jack-up their price.

Incidentally, the 48 square cornered BB cards (circa 1949) were marketed by "Sports Star Subjects" in those four 12-card packs.


TED Z
.
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  #164  
Old 05-06-2017, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Greg

I have to tell you this....I'm somewhat suspicious of these Movie Stars cards. Here is the seller's comments..........


" I will be breaking down a full 48 card high grade set ..this set is hard to find in any condition let alone in such exceptional shape.

This is the only set i've ever had of these cards and i've only seen a few singles pop up here and there.

At the end of the card listings i'll be listing the original 4 colored boxes in separate auctions...don't miss out on those ever rarer boxes.

These cards were issued in the late 1940s or early 1950s by A.J. Wildman & Son Titled "Screen Star Subjects"

card measures; 21/4 x 3 7/16 " with blank backs...the backs are clean unless specified.

These cards are seem very similar to the Bond Bread cards made of sports cards which were made in 1947 and fetch a pretty penny.

Please examine scans and ask questions...i will point out any flaws not seen on the scan.

After some discussion in the hobby it appears these may in fact be Bond Bread cards.

They are the same size,card stock,shape as the Baseball cards issued in 1947 which also were issued in 12 card boxes.
"



I don't know of anyone who pulled Movie Star cards out of Bond Bread loaf packages in 1947. Furthermore, the beveled corners of his
Movie Stars are unlike those of the original 1947 BB cards (whose corners were factory die cut). And, it absolutely does NOT make any
sense (if these cards were marketed in the 12-card packs) for them to have beveled corners.

Something does not jive here. Unless they were hand trimmed to resemble the 1947 issue, so he (or someone) could jack-up their price.

Incidentally, the 48 square cornered BB cards (circa 1949) were marketed by "Sports Star Subjects" in those four 12-card packs.


TED Z
.
Hi Ted,

I bought a partial set of the movie star cards with the rounded corners. They are factory cuts. There are 3 non sports guys who have cards or sets with the rounded corners and in all cases those cards did come from those boxes. I will have to compare the cuts on the movie stars to the baseball cards as I have both. They appeared exactly the same to me when I first looked at them that I never gave the corners another look.

Thanks,
Greg
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  #165  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:53 AM
JamesGallo JamesGallo is offline
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Ok so I had asked about these cards a while back mine are exhibit sized but have a cardstock cardboard backing. Not white or beige and pretty thick with what I would call a semi gloss.





This is a list of the cards I have.

Here are the 17 common cards
(3)* Ewell Blackwell
(4)* Lou Boudreau
(6)* Harry Brecheen
(9)* Bobbie Doerr (Bobby)
(11)* Bob Elliott
(12)* Del Ennis
(13)* Bob Feller
(16)* Joe Gordon
(19)* Tommy Holmes
(24)* Ken Keltner
(26)* Ralph Kiner
(30)* Johnny Mize
(33)* Johnny Pesky
(36)* Aaron Robinson
(38)* John Sain
(39)* Enos Slaughter
(40)* Vern Stephens


Then 7 more uncommon cards
(20) Larry Janson (Jansen)
(21) Sheldon Jones
(22) Edwin Joost
(27) John Lindell
(28) Whitey Lockman
(41) George Tebbetts
(43) Johnny Van Der Meer (VanderMeer)


I also have the Walker Cooper that isn't listed on old cardboard.

James G
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Last edited by JamesGallo; 05-08-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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  #166  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:44 PM
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You've got a ways to go for the set.



(I never get tired of that one...)

No one knows much about the issue, despite all the sharp card researchers here. Best guess is it was the same art licensed to someone other than the bread folks. Like the perforated cards from Elgee



(never get tired of that one either)
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  #167  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:08 PM
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Default Missing images

Images don't show anymore, unless you pay Photobucket $399.00
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  #168  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archive View Post
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams,
a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we
had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. In the Fall of 1947, we experienced one of the most
exciting World Series ever played. 1947 was a tremendous year for BB, and a great start for me in the wonderful life-long hobby of col-
lecting BB cards. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each
other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set.


1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD wrapper


[linked image]



Many cards in this set are the very 1st (or rookie) cards issued of the players. Shown here are the 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Stan Musial,
Jackie Pobinson, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner and Bobby Thomson.

[linked image]



This set has been the source of much confusion in the hobby for many years. The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this
general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages.
Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs
have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters".

Shown here are two cards from the 1949 (unknown) issue which includes 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and
an additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards may have been printed by the
same firm that printed the 1947 set. However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie the fact that these cards are
NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue.
A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this col-
lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49).


1949 (unknown) issue

[linked image]




A 1947 Bond Bread Team/checklist will follow in the next post here.


TED Z


Like magic, my 1st post images have re-appeared. I'm in the process of gradually transferring my images to another system.


TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 11-02-2017 at 04:37 PM.
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  #169  
Old 11-02-2017, 08:43 PM
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Default Jackie Robinson round corners

Ted-Are all the Jackie Robinson cards round cornered? I've only seen one card (portrait) with round corners, all the rest have square.
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  #170  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:21 AM
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Default Berra

I've got a nice SGC 80 Berra to share but I guess I'm missing a security token so I can't upload the image. But it looks great. I'm doing an interpretative dance right now to describe it so you can all picture it in your heads.
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  #171  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Webster View Post
Ted-Are all the Jackie Robinson cards round cornered? I've only seen one card (portrait) with round corners, all the rest have square.

Jack

The 1947 BOND BREAD Jackie Robinson series (13-cards) were not issued in Bond Bread packages; and therefore, they are all Square-cornered.

These cards were my very first BB cards which I collected as a very young kid in 1947......pulled out of BOND BREAD packages.




TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 06-11-2020 at 07:36 AM.
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  #172  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:56 AM
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Question... I have the rounded corner Jackie that is mint but came back a SGC A due to it be 1/64th of a inch too small. Does that even make sense?
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  #173  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
Question... I have the rounded corner Jackie that is mint but came back a SGC A due to it be 1/64th of a inch too small. Does that even make sense?

Stephen

I just shuffled thru my 1947 BOND BREAD set (48 cards)....and, the variation in size between some of these cards is as much as 1/16th of an inch.

My advice to you is to wait a couple of months, then crack the card out of its holder and re-submit it to SGC (or PSA). There's a high likelihood that
you'll get it back with a numerical grade.


TED Z

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  #174  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:38 PM
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Hodges and Furillo
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  #175  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:42 AM
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  #176  
Old 01-24-2018, 10:58 AM
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Scottsdale Cards has a boxed set of Screen Star Subjects for sale, suggesting that the rounded-corner cards were available in these boxes.
--Tim
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  #177  
Old 01-24-2018, 11:19 AM
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That's discouraging. The rounded corners was the only way I knew of to differentiate the Bond Breads from the Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects
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  #178  
Old 07-19-2019, 12:59 PM
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Last night's Heritage had this card:




The starting bid was $1500, which I thought was strong and I figured maybe it hits $3K with vig. It sold for $8,700. The total pop on these cards is two in any grade and it is definitely a rare card, but I'm still shocked at how expensive it was.
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  #179  
Old 07-21-2019, 09:05 AM
Ct94122 Ct94122 is offline
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Default 1947 Bond Bread

Just got these back from SGC and thought I would post. I appreciate the information provided about this set going back 10 years or more on this thread. I also have a bunch of the Hollywood versions of cards ( Jimmy Stewart, Alan Ladd, etc). They have rounded corners but I cannot find as much information on the star cards as the baseball. I appreciate the net54 community and the wealth of knowledge in this forum community.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:28 AM
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Default 1947 Bond Bread

Trying to figure out photos.
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  #181  
Old 07-21-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ct94122 View Post
Trying to figure out photos.
Through the miracle of modern technology and communication, here are CT's photos!
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  #182  
Old 11-18-2019, 01:10 PM
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Default 1947 BOND BREAD cards

Daryl

The two Jackie Robinson cards in your picture should not have been graded "A" by SGC. These mis-graded JRobby cards
tell us that SGC is not really educated enough regarding these cards to grade them properly.

In 1947, I pulled a number of these 1947 rounded corner cards from BOND BREAD packages which had "square" corners
simply because the factory did not provide sufficient pressure on the die-cut machinery to shape that corner. The proof of
this is the die-cut impression on that card's "square" corner.

There are at least 4 (if not more) such mis-cut cards in my complete set of 48 cards.


TED Z

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  #183  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:14 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Tip Top and Bond Bread were issued by the same company -Ward Baking, whose parent company was General Baking when these 2 sets were issued in 1947.

Tip Top only issued cards for the cities that had teams -for example, Tip Top contained only cards of the Braves and Red Sox while New York were only issued Yankees, Giants and Dodgers, so collectors would see any other team.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Bond Bread cards were issued in states and cities that had no teams. Just a wild guess.
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  #184  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:23 AM
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Default 1947 BOND BREAD cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
Tip Top and Bond Bread were issued by the same company -Ward Baking, whose parent company was General Baking when these 2 sets were issued in 1947.

Tip Top only issued cards for the cities that had teams -for example, Tip Top contained only cards of the Braves and Red Sox while New York were only issued Yankees, Giants and Dodgers, so collectors would see any other team.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Bond Bread cards were issued in states and cities that had no teams. Just a wild guess.

Ryan

Both 1947 BOND BREAD and TIP TOP cards were issued in states and cities which had Major League teams playing BB.

I don't understand this last statement of yours. It does not make any sense.

I collected these BOND BREAD cards as a very young kid in the Summer/Fall of 1947. We lived in NJ (less than a 1/2 hour away from NYC).
My cousins who lived in NYC collected these same cards.

The TIP TOP Set consists of 163 subjects which represent 11 teams in the Major Leagues.

The BOND BREAD set consists of 44 ballplayers....here is a team checklist:

NEW YORK GIANTS
-------------------
JOHNNY MIZE
SID GORDON
LARRY JANSEN
SHELDON JONES
BUDDY KERR
WHITEY LOCKMAN
WILLARD MARSHALL
BOBBY THOMSON

BROOKLYN DODGERS
--------------------
JACKIE ROBINSON
REX BARNEY
RALPH BRANCA
BRUCE EDWARDS
CARL FURILLO
JOE HATTEN
GIL HODGES
PEE WEE REESE


NEW YORK YANKEES
--------------------
JOE DiMAGGIO
LARRY BERRA
JOE GORDON
CHARLIE KELLER
JOHNNY LINDELL
PHIL RIZZUTO
AARON ROBINSON

BOSTON RED SOX
------------------
TED WILLIAMS
DOM DIMAGGIO
BOBBY DOERR
JOHNNY PESKY

CLEVELAND INDIANS
---------------------
BOB FELLER
LOU BOUDREAU
KEN KELTNER
BIRDIE TEBBETTS

ST LOUIS CARDINALS
----------------------
STAN MUSIAL
HARRY BRECHEEN
ENOS SLAUGHTER

BOSTON BRAVES
-----------------
JOHNNY SAIN
BOB ELLIOTT
TOMMY HOLMES

CINCINNATI REDS
-------------------
EWELL BLACKWELL
JOHNNY VANDERMEER

CHICAGO CUBS
-------------
ANDY PAFKO

PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS
--------------------------
EDDIE JOOST

PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES
-------------------------
DEL ENNIS

PITTSBURGH PIRATES
----------------------
RALPH KINER

ST LOUIS BROWNS
-------------------
VERN STEPHENS



TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 11-19-2019 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Added information.
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  #185  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:35 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Well, I did say I'd go out on a limb
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  #186  
Old 04-08-2020, 08:49 PM
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Default Deleted.

Mistaken post.

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  #187  
Old 04-09-2020, 05:23 AM
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My favorite Bond Bread Card Does this enlighten or confuse?



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  #188  
Old 04-09-2020, 06:26 AM
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Default 1947 BOND BREAD cards

Hi Scott

Nothing unusual....check-out my Joe DiMaggio card here....same effect. The factory simply did not punch thru with their die-cut machine on those two corners.

A close look at your "square" corners shows an imprint of the die-cut. Same is true for my DiMaggio card.





TED Z

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  #189  
Old 04-09-2020, 06:44 AM
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I noticed the impression from the missed cut, just thought I'd have some fun. I used to work in an ad agency that had it's own in-house print shop so I've seen some weird stuff and agree completely with your assessment. I also find it interesting how the curves aren't consistent. from shorter curves closer to the corner to curves that are slightly squared off, a lot of interesting things going on. Also I've never seen missed corner cuts on the same side, always seems to be opposite corners.

Hope you and yours are well and safe. See you...

...eventually!
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  #190  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:51 PM
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Default Warren Cooper card from "Sports Star Subjects" set?

I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike
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  #191  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:15 PM
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Default What is name of company pictured on the back in the second scan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wastewater View Post
See attached for some movie stars. I thought the back was interesting as I hadn't seen the 46 cards mentioned before like this. The Hess reference looks to be a stamp added after printing.
In Post #47, two scans of combinations of cards including champion golfer "'Babe" Didrikson Zaharias were shown. The second scan included the backs of two cards side-by-side. Together those two backs indicate a set of 46 cards (including sports cards). The back pictured at right has the name "HESS SHOES" stamped at its top. The left pictured back has what appears to be the printed name of a company (the manufacturer perhaps?) and some other words at its lower left. Unfortunately, I cannot read what they say from the scan I am viewing. Does anyone know what is printed there? Thanks, Mike

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  #192  
Old 05-06-2020, 01:52 PM
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what a fun thread to see make its way to the top after all these years - my addition.
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  #193  
Old 05-06-2020, 04:02 PM
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Default Walker Cooper "mystery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by abctoo View Post
I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike
Welcome to the club, Mike Fried

I do not have a Walker Cooper card to show you from the Sports Star Subjects set. However, I do have the 1949 NY Giants Team Photo Pack (25 photos),
which were issued at the Polo Grounds. Shown here is Walker Cooper from this Photo Pack set. The exact image is in the Sports Star Subjects card set.





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  #194  
Old 05-07-2020, 01:45 AM
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TED Z: There is no dispute that all of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread cards existing today still have their original white backs (no matter how dirty the backs may have become) and 4 rounded corners, except for those like the examples posted in this thread where the die cut did not go all the way through.

Let me digress a little. In 1947, the Remar Baking Company put out its Sunbeam Bread set for the Oakland Oaks of my home town. Records show that in 1936, Remar was baking 40,000 loafs of bread per day. Though I cannot find records as to the number of loafs Remar baked post-war, it is not unreasonable to presume that number had significantly increased by 1947.

I do not have information on how many loafs of Homogenized Bond Bread were baked daily, but it is not unreasonable to assume the number was 50,000 to 100,000 or more loafs each day. Assuming 100,000 loafs per day, even if the cards were printed in sheets of 48 (an issue I will address in a subsequent post), that's a need to print 2,000 sheets just to satisfy one day's demand for inserts. Ted has said the cards were distributed from 1947 into 1948. That's a lot of days, and this was done for months. In just one week alone (assuming they did not bake on Sundays), 600,000 cards or more were inserted.

I have begun been doing extensive research not only on the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but on the "Sports Star Subjects" set, the Festberg remainders, various other sets that have been called "Bond Bread" sets (including the "three-sided perforated" set, the "cowboy" backed set and the larger sized Exhibits), as well as the Team Photo Pack sets sold in the ball parks and others (even the R364 Blue Tints because they were mentioned in this thread).

I will soon post extensive details identifying the company that was the source of the pictures for these sets, which will show the obvious printer. We all know, on the surface, the 1947 Team Photo Packs appear to be the source of the pictures used in many of these sets. They are not. They are only the same pictures coming from the same source. The difference between the Team Photo Packs and the cards of these various sets were printed gives us a clue. [In fact, it was the Babe Zaharias card posted in this thread with "Hess Shoe" rubber stamped backs of cards that led me to hours of research and the identification.] A close look with a magnifying glass at the same cards of the same player (or boxer) from one set to another shows the cards of that player all have the same screen dot pattern. [On the Exhibits, the dot pattern is just in a larger size.]

As to the special Jackie Robinson set, another thread on net54 baseball has provided convincing evidence that Bond Bread distributed the first card of that set in 1947, including by going into black neighborhoods and giving that card away along with two slides of Bond Bread to promote the product. The rest of the special Jackie Robinson set was distributed one card at a time from 1947 through 1949. Hopefully, that discovery has changed people's perspectives on what are Robinson's rookie cards. It is a tough pill to swallow when a card you think is a rookie card no longer is. Fortunately, those Jackie Robinson cards still retain their scarcity.

As to the "Sports Star Subjects" set, which is not a 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, both here in net54ball and elsewhere, many have dated the set to 1949 because that was the earliest year any advertisement offering the set has been found.

Ted, the work you have done on T206s is masterful! From what you have described in just your net54ball postings alone to develop the different advertising back sets clearly shows that few, if any, collectors have the knowledge and ability to even come close.

But with all due respect, I have a friendly disagreement with you about whether there is a Walker Cooper card in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. One of the 48 players would have had to be left out so that Cooper could come in. All of my records and research indicate that all 48 original players and boxers appeared in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. I would like to see an actual Walker Cooper card from the set.

As to the Festberg remainder cards, others have claimed they are 1980's reprints made when they were first offered to the public. Below are two scans of my examination under ultra-violet light. This is important because by 1950 paper manufacturers were adding brighteners to the papermaking process because both pictures and text print more clearing on brightened paperstock. Under ultra-violet light, brighteners phosphoresce and/or fluoresce while paperstock without brighteners remains dull. A Festberg card was placed over a strip of brighten paper. Both scans below show the strip of paper reacting to the ultra-violet light while the Festberg remainder card did not. That places the Festberg remainder cards to being made no later than 1950.

I take the story about the finding of the Festberg remainder cards at face value. That story indicates they were unissued cards. They should not be described as cards released to the public. They should always be referred to as remainders. You'll note, I did not say which set they were remainders of. Keep an open mind. My soon to be posted discussion (it may take a few posts) about the photograph sources and printers of these set should help clear that up.






P.S. I add this note in memory of my fellow collector, Ken Yee. I remember going to a show with him decades ago. He took me to a dealer, pulled out a Mark Maguire highly graded PSA rookie card and sold to the dealer for $50, about one-sixth of the going price at the time. I protested: "Why didn't you sell it me? Everybody knows it's a valuable card." He explained that over 500,000 of the same card had already been graded by the various grading companies. He said, they don't care and know exactly what they are doing, making money by getting everybody to believe they provide a valuable service.

And that leads me to TED Z's favorite "Bond Bread" card that gets posted from time to time.

This past week, I looked at the population reports for 1947 cards at PSA's website. For those who do not know, PSA has graded only one card it called a “1947 Bond Bread" card, a PSA 7 Ted Williams. Apparently, there was some controversy, because after grading that one card, PSA now says it no longer grades “1947 Bond Bread” cards. I've never seen the back of that cards, so I can't determine what it is.

There are also Exhibits cards with the identical pictures as the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but the pictures were printed in the larger Exhibits size. Though these Exhibits are not Bond Bread cards, both PSA, SCG and I believe BGS continue to grade them as “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." PSA alone as graded some 305 of these "1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." The same player pictures have been found on three-sided perforated cards with pictures of Westerns stars or other subjects printed on the back. Though not Homogenized Bond Bread cards, several grading companies grade these three sized-perforated cards as “1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual-Sized.” PSA has graded 28 of them.
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Old 05-07-2020, 07:44 AM
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Nice cards guys!

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  #196  
Old 05-07-2020, 12:55 PM
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Looking forward to your posts, Michael.

My understanding is that the miscellaneous formats of cards originated with Aarco and was then licensed.

The "exhibit" cards are not and have never been understood by Exhibit collectors to be Exhibit cards for one overriding reason: they don't fit into the machines for vending. How they were sold is conjectural as far as I know.

The perforated, dual side cards appear to have been made by Elgee Products, likely as a licensee of Aarco, then sold to various retailers to stamp and use as premiums for the kiddies, hence the Hess Shoes stamped cards.
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Old 05-07-2020, 02:46 PM
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Due to an excessive amount of blank lines appearing the text of this post, it has been deleted to save space in this thread. This post has been reposted without all of that blank (white) space in the next thread, Post #198.

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Old 05-07-2020, 03:24 PM
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Sorry there was a systems gliche in my last post of less than an hour ago. Below it is corrected without the long white space and other errors. As to the other members' responses about the sources of the pictures, their manufacturers and the processses involved, you are getting closer. It's detailed and I hope to have a response posted very soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcoz View Post
Nice cards guys!
A response about "Babe Ruth" and a note about seeing the reactions of ultra-violet (UV) light on the paperstock of a card to determine its vintage.

BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING UV LIGHT! It is part of normal sunlight but our eyes do not see it. Our bodies though sure can feel the sunburn UV light can cause. We can wear UV light shielding sunglasses, but don't stare directly at the sun. UV light can be dangerous.

Today, UV light sources are readily available and around us in many products. For example, lightbulbs generating more intense UV light than in sunlight are bought by many households to periodically sanitize away the bacteria and viruses that can normally accumulate including the bad "bugs" we do not want around. All of those sanitizing UV bulbs come with cautions not to be around the half to an hour or so while the light is on as the UV light can impact our bodies and to be especially careful not to look directly at the bulb when it is shining as that can damage your eyes. Eyes are not built to see UV wavelengths. All we see are the wavelengths normally visible to us that these bulbs simultaneously generate. It is the reaction to the UV light that is important, even though we cannot see the UV light itself.

UV light bulbs that specifically generate only short-wave or long-wave UV light (without the wavelengths of other colors) can be obtained. Post offices use UV light sealed inside some automated mail processing machines to read the chemicals it has had printed on first class stamps (and some others). These chemicals are invisible to us under normal light but will react to UV light by "glowing" in various colors that the machines can read. Newer US stamps react to certain wavelengths of shortwave UV light, while the Canadian and British stamps react to longwave UV light. You have seen a similar effect if you have ever gone into a "dark" room at some exhibition where UV light was shining on rocks or minerals. They sure glow, don't they.

Why does it seem like I have been rambling with all of the above information? Actually, the information is provided to specifically address the authenticity of the Babe Ruth card shown in the previous post.

First, the card is in a card holder. UV light has to directly shine on the thing you want to react to it or you get no reaction. Even a thin T-shirt usually protects covered skin from sunburn. The plastic in PSA's holder would block the UV from reaching the card so there is no possibility of a reaction occurring. Even a simple card sleeve will block out UV light. Anything between the UV light source and the object will block out the UV light and thus remove the possibility of a reaction occurring.

If grading services would now start to shine UV light through their holders as the test for previously graded cards, that would no test at all. The ability of a paper reaction to UV light has been block by the holder. No reaction can occur even if one possibly could on direct contact with UV light. A preliminary UV light test for the age of paper is that newer paper will react to the UV light while vintage paper will not react. Perhaps, grading services will perform the UV light test in the future by shining the light through the holder and see no reaction. Thus they can claim to have "proved" the paperstock of the card in the unopened holder was vintage as there was no reaction to UV light at all. What would be the value of such a claim when no UV light had actually shined on the card? Keeping this Babe Ruth card in it PSA holder provides a tremendous example of the quality of grading company expertise.

I am no expert on Babe Ruth's autograph. If someone wanted my opinion on whether a Babe Ruth autograph was genuine or not, the first thing I would want to do is see if thing the purported autograph was on was something that Babe Ruth could have actually signed. I've been around long enough to know that vintage Babe Ruth cards are high enough in price and demand that they have been modified, reproduced and faked extensively, perhaps during Babe Ruth's time, but certainly thereafter.

A slight digression: In the 1980s, my son and I set up at a small card show at the Scottish Rites Temple in Oakland where Mickey Mantle had come to sign autographs to help raise funds for that financially troubled local chapter. I had a Topps Mantle rookie that was terribly beat up with damaged corners, numerous creases and a number "7" almost 1 inch high strongly impressed by pencil on the front. Back then, no one would have paid $5 for it. Most grading companies would have certainly graded it "A" for authentic, but I would have considered myself very fortunate if it received a grade of "1" (the lowest condition grade). Before the show, my son said he wanted to have Mickey autograph the card as that would give it some value. When we arrived to setup at the show, I told the person in charge what we wanted and paid the $10 fee for the autograph. I ultimately received the autographed card for my son. (How I did is a long story for another time as the show promoter forgot to have Mantle sign it while he was there.) In the past ten years, my son was offered over $750 for the ungraded card and was smart enough to sell it to confirm he was justified in his actions 25 years earlier. Looking at the extremes, is a Babe Ruth card worth 10 cents or 10 million dollars?

Actually shining a UV light on the Babe Ruth card outside its holder in a room with the normal lights off will show whether the card contains "brighteners" or not. No brighteners, no glow - - the initial sign of vintage paperstock. [That still does not prove the autograph authentic.] If a glow, the card was probably printed on paper made more recently than 1950. That analysis of the UV light results works most of the time and at least gives you a starting point. However, if vintage paper has been kept in direct contact with newer paper containing brighteners, in some instances some of those brighteners can transfer to the vintage paper. The biggest problem is when someone tries to clean a card, especially using some form of soap. Many cleaning products contain "brighteners" just as the boxes of Tide, All and other detergents tell you. Experiencing the difference in uniformity and splotchiness of such "glows" will help determine if that has occurred. At least the UV test is a good starting point to see if the paper was available at the time its autographer was alive.

A further digression: I recently sold a lot of graded 8 and 9 cards of rookies from the middle 1980's. The ideas highly promoted by various grading companies back then to get people use their services included: first, grading will make a card more valuable, and second, grading provides proof of authenticity. Back then, most grading services charged between $6 and $20 to grade a card (some also required membership). A look today at PSA's price guide on-line for PSA 8 and PSA 9 rookie cards from the middle 1980's shows most of these graded cards retail at prices lower than the cost of originally having them graded. Ungraded, perhaps a few of those rookies would sell today for a couple of dollars.

I am not suggesting the owner of the pictured graded and authenticated card labeled Babe Ruth take the card out of its holder for a UV light test, but until the grading card services are held to task financially (like by a court judgment) on the promises they made about the value of their services and the value that grading adds to a card, little will change.

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, Oakland, California, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521
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  #199  
Old 05-07-2020, 04:30 PM
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He copyrighted it.
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Old 05-07-2020, 04:57 PM
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Default 1949 Bond Bread Cards

Too bad there's no date on it.
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