Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[aelefson]

Hi-

I saw David with a bunch (100+ I think) of the sets at Papermania in Hartford CT several years ago. I cannot remember the exact year but it was around 2019 or more recently. I wonder how many sets there were in his find.

Alan

[Johnphotoman]

You know…Dave Fessburg, could clear this all up, and he is probably the only one who knows how many cards there where. I don't know even if he is still around. But it would be cool to have him respond, or just to talk to him and get his respective on things. John

[butchie_t]

In the words of Yamamoto: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

This is totally 'tongue-in-cheek' and more of a reference to the first thread on this subject.

There is humor to be found in this, one just has to find it.

Cheers,

Butch

[Johnphotoman]

I did get it, very good. We could use more humor. This is fun, and it should be. Collecting should not be such a drag. That is what I like about this forum, we all give a little and get a little from each and every conversation. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

butchie t, Since you have all 24 cards, could you post the names here, I did the 44, but cannot find the list for the 24. And do you know if they are the exact same image, or are some different. As I said, I am trying to match baseball card images with the photos I have. John.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

butchie t, Since you have all 24 cards, could you post the names here, I did the 44, but cannot find the list for the 24. And do you know if they are the exact same image, or are some different. As I said, I am trying to match baseball card images with the photos I have. John.

John, I'll point you to the old thread. They are the exact same images.

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...&postcount=417

You can see front and back scans of all my cards.

Butch....

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you Butch, does anyone know if the 24 car set is printed on different paper stock, then the 44 card set. That would be the only way to tell the two sets apart, since there are the same images on both sets. If anyone has different looking paper stock on the 44 card set , can you post. I am going through the ones I have. Everyone should look at butchie_t post: notice the thread says the Fessburg find. I believe the jury is still out on that one. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

I missed the boat on this one, yes there are cards printed on different stock then the butchie_t cards. Sorry, “Sport Star Subjects” in 1949 printed a 44 card set, which are square cornered versions exactly the same as the Bond Bread round corner cards on the same paper stock. That's because they were both printed by Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards. I have some I will post later. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

GeoPoto GeoPoto - I like to offer up a better reason why I am convinced about the 1980 Festburg cards, and other 1947-49 cards discussed here. One because of new or a better understanding of the facts we have surrounding those cards. I discovered much confusion, misidentification and perhaps some people just not telling the truth. We see false ads all the time. To be clear, much of the information in this piece is based on supposition by myself and other collectors. But as new evidence or information comes forth …we can say we are on the right track, I would say with an 80% to 95% accuracy on what we put forth as truth. I believe the one card you have is one of the original Bond Bread cards, but to see the back would help. Great Card. John

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda: I spent a little time researching my notes, and the 13 cards that make up the 1947 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set, (printing on the backs) are considered a rarity more so then the Bond Bread cards that came in the loaves of bread, the ones with no printing on the backs. The 13 card set - are done entirely in black and white. The images have rounded corners with a white outside border and squared cut cards.

One card in the set has a portrait of Robinson on the front along with a facsimile signature. The back of this one card is the only one to feature a biographical write-up. The others cards have one of two back- with direct ads, that cover the rest of the set.

The facsimile signature the card portrait of Robinson, was likely distributed outside of the rest of the set. Most likely not inserted in loaves of bread. It has long been believed that it was a promo card of sorts available at grocery stores, among other distribution ways. There is this ad from 1947 in the Baltimore Afro new paper that seems to back this theory up: The ad tells people to run to the grocery store to get one for free. It looks like there is no mention of having to buy a loaf of bread. And then there is an ad, not sure where the ad ran, that looks like the front of the card- that says Free Offer, your grocer will give you a pocket-size photo of Jackie, get yours today.

The people who collect Robinson cards could tell you more. Will try and dig up the ad and post them and some other copies I have on these cards. If not I bet someone out there can. PS-I am going over my notes to see if I have anything on the cards you have, can you post pictures of front and backs. Someone more acquainted with your cards could tell you more.

John

[Matt74]

John, I have no doubt in my mind that they are the same cards Butchie T has... I just need to find them, however, I had picked up 3 more this past year which have a darker back, more of a beige than cream, but no where near as dark as the original pic in the thread. Musial and Williams from one vendor, and a Kiner from another. I'm trying to post pics of the front and backs of these, but my upload keeps failing. They pass the smell test (although not as strong as most older cards) and they are very thin, like I remember my set. Strange thing is, the Kiner is just a touch shorter than the other 2 (trimmed? maybe). I'll try to upload some pictures of these again tomorrow.

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, Matt74-Quality control was really not that good in the 1940s, cards do not all come out the same size every time. It's not that unusual to see different size cards. Paper stock could have changed during a run of cards, I think that is why we have so many different cards printed on different card stock. In 1947, paper was considered extremely scarce due to the aftermath of World War II, where massive amounts of paper were used for military purposes, leading to significant shortages even after the war ended; this scarcity prompted widespread recycling, with many countries implementing paper rationing systems. Paper was scarce in 1947: During Wartime our military consumed vast quantities of paper, significantly depleting supplies .Limited paper availability affected everything from newspapers and magazines to packaging materials, making everyday items harder to acquire.Therefore sometimes during a run of cards- they would have to change the paper. But they all came from the same run of cards. Therefore a batch of cards would have different card stock in the same run of cards. Many people miss this, and say the cards are fake, or re-runs printed at some other time. . John

[Johnphotoman]

What we have to do is stop believing that cards from the 1940-50s printed on some other kind of paper stock, say like the cards Ted Z collected right out of loaves of Bond Bread are fake or re-prints from some other time, ie, after the 50s; just because they are on another kind of paper.

I believe this was done by people who wanted their cards - on what they thought was the right kind of paper would bring a premium price, or be able to say they have the only true originals, or what they have is rarer than anything else. Or they just believed in what they believed in, and that is why people want to believe that a baseball card on different stock is not from 1947-50s. But as new facts have come to light it has changed our way of thinking.

We can tell old paper stock from modern paper stock. In many different ways, one by a black light. Also by comparing the paper stock to a known 1947 printed card. Yes there were deep fakes printed after 1947-50s on different paper stock, but we can tell them apart by the quality of printing.

Understand, to print the exact image on a card from 1947 you had to have the original photograph, and the odds of a much later print having that original photograph is near 0%. Therefore they would have to copy the original printed card. We can tell when this is done, see the example above. Please understand that cards printing from the 1940-1950s can be printing on many different paper stocks. As I have said it is a (fact) theory, or I should say it is believed that a print run being printed - sometimes hard to change paper stock during a run right in the middle of the run: because they would run out of the supply that had. Therefore they would have to find a replacement stock, because of the shortage of paper in the 1940-50s they would use what they had on hand. You would have one card on the exact same card printed on different paper stock of the exact same image for the same run. John.

[Johnphotoman]

Pat R-

Patrick, I did check out thread 53 from Ted Z, and I would say the cards you have or friend have are not from the "Festberg" find. But from 1947 Sports Star- printed by the Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12. John

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Pat R-

Patrick, I did check out thread 53 from Ted Z, and I would say the cards you have or friend have are not from the "Festberg" find. But from 1947 Sports Star- printed by the Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12. John

Hi John, I'm not questioning you because I know very little about the Bond Bread, "Sports-Star or Festberg cards but the group my friend has have cream colored backs like the ones Ted claimed are Festberg cards.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

Thanks, John, very helpful. Appreciate it.

[Johnphotoman]

Pat R
Patrick- no please question me, that's how we are going to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread controversy. We need to ask questions, thank you for doing so. I will go back and look over my notes as well as - Ted Z thread, to see if I missed anything, and report back to you what I believe to be true; based on the facts we have so far. I do know of one problem: many people bought what we classify as “Bond Bread” cards printed in 1947 from ads in the 1980- 1990. Then many heard about the "Festberg" find, and just assumed that's the cards they have. As a result people started believing their cards are from some other time than 1947-1949. Keep in mind most experts believe the Festberg cards were printed in 1947-1949, and then discovered in a warehouse in the '80s… by David Festberg. John

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by Leon

This should keep you going for the next hour or so....It was started about 15 1/2 yrs ago by Teddy Z (RIP)...

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92743

Before my report or findings on this Bond Bread controversy all due respect and appreciation goes out to Ted Z: For starting this Bond Bread thread back in 2009, may he rest in peace. Leon in thread #4 of this thread was kind enough to post the link to the original thread. My appreciation goes out to all past and present who have participated and added their contribution, thanks to all. John

My report back will be a long one as I gather the information we have on this Bond Bread controversy. I will be posting updates at different times so stay tuned. The controversy is about what a Bond Bread card is, and what did they look like. We have rounded corner cards, squared corner cards, a 1980s Festberg find, in a warehouse in NJ. On top of that we printed cards on different card stock-paper and then there are the out right fakes - counterfeit cards.

Let's start at the beginning. Quoting: Ted Z- “It was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set.”

Ted Z- made a valid point - the only cards that should get the designation of Bond Bread cards are the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread bread. Ted Z- “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "impostors".

One other problem I see is that the Standard catalog of vantage baseball cards 4 edition, (I do not know about the others editions), classify both the round corned cards and the square corned cards as Bond Bread and give it the classification as W571 or I should say have assign them to W571.

Ted Z had first hand knowledge on what should be considered and given the destination as Bond Bread cards. He collected his cards directly from Bond Bread packages. Which I believe he said they we're never square corner cards or beveled cut, not quite round. See the threads below.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...05%2D14%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D28%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D30%2D2020

There is this misconception… that the rounded corner “Bond Bread” card was printed before all others. This is not true. We know that the Chicago publisher, Arrco Playing Card company had printed baseball cards and had originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. For boxes of Sport Star baseball cards, notice the round or beveled edges. See thread # 76.

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D10%2D2016

One reason why there is a difference in a rounder and beveled cut corners cards: Is because in the beginning of the production of the baseball cards by Arrco - the Sports Star cards where most likely die cut which gave them more of a beveled edge. By the time they started production on the Bond Bread cards, Arrco probably started using a round cornering machine, which gave the cards a more rounded edge.

Two interesting facts: The ARRCO Playing Card Company was started in 1927 (or 1930) in Chicago. ARRCO started as Arrow Playing Card Company by Theodore Regensteiner, who also invented the four-color lithograph press.

The round cornering machine, also known as a corner rounder or corner cutter, was invented to add rounded edges to documents, business cards, covers, and other printed materials. I do not know who invented the round cornering machine. But it was more pleasing to the eye than say a die cut card. We can see the difference in the cards.

Stay tuned, more to come. John

[butchie_t]

John,

I admire your quest to get to the bottom of this set. I certainly champion your effort as it will be a slog.

Any way I can help, and I am sure it won't be much more than I have already provided, I happy to lend a hand.

Cheers

Butch

[BigfootIsReal]

Let's fantasize (wink) for a minute. What would a loaf of BB (JRob) with the card still inside sell for?

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by BigfootIsReal

Let's fantasize (wink) for a minute. What would a load of BB (JRob) with the card still inside sell for?

JRob baseball cards are baseball cards featuring Jackie Robinson, the one and only legendary player for the Brooklyn Dodgers: I believe they would be priceless, priceless in a way no price could be put on them. Just think if they were unopened; there are some things we just not put a price on. Only thing is I do not know if the cards where issued in a 12 box set. John.

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

John,

I admire your quest to get to the bottom of this set. I certainly champion your effort as it will be a slog.

Any way I can help, and I am sure it won't be much more than I have already provided, I happy to lend a hand.

Cheers

Butch

Thank you Butch; I will be calling on calling on you soon, I do need to compile the evidence you have put forth so far. I do have some questions for you, as you said it is going to be a long haul. John

[Johnphotoman]

Report number 2. I believe that baseball cards that are fake or forgeries / counterfeits and the 1980s Festberg are good cards to collect. As I said before, they are a part of baseball history. In my opinion they should not be considered less valuable, or less collectible. Wait maybe less valuable, because they are not the originals, originals usually are worth more. But...think about it… they are probably rarer than the cards everybody wants to collect. Probably far less of those out there than any other cards. But we do need to know what we have in our baseball collection, and accurately place them in the category they belong in like the Bond Bread cards.

PS, I am walking back my thoughts on how we can tell the Festberg find by the backs. I understand now that my conclusions came from two less of a population, meaning I did not have enough samples to go by. Nothing has changed my mind. I just want to have more samples to look at and go by. My original opinion came from talking to people over time, and samples that people have said where the real Festberg find. My goal is to have a bigger population of cards to go by. I have eliminated some cards they have been called “Festberg”, because we have enough proof they can not be from the Festberg find. Next up I want to go over how the cards were printed. This could explain what looks to me some misunderstanding in the Ted Z thread. John

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Here is what a copy or counterfeit card could and should look like in my opinion. The thing about the 1980s Festburg find is no one calls them fakes or counterfeits, just re-prints of 24 Bond Bread cards. John

I do not mean to call this card a fake / forgery, I was trying to show a poor quality of a printed card. I need to slow down and get everything right. Sorry for any misunderstanding. You can tell it is not a fake by the dot pattern, which I will go over in How baseball cards were printed, in report number 3. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

This is the copy of the card with set off on it. It is not a copy of a forgery. John

[Johnphotoman]

This is the image I was supposed to use to show a forgery, John

[Johnphotoman]

Report number 3
How baseball cards are printed;
The technology used to mechanically print realistic pictures on baseball cards did not exist for the most part until around the mid 1800s. Before the mid 1800s most pictures printed resembled hand drawn sketches, not photos. The invention of the Lithograph half-tone printing process changed all that. This new process allowed for magazines, newspapers and trading cards to have photorealistic images. Like the Bond Bread cards. Baseball cards were printed using a halftone technique that creates a gradient effect of ink by varying the size or spacing of dots: to trick the eye into seeing different shades.

The screen printing (half-tones) process was a complicated process. This new halftone process used a special screen to translate a photographic image into a pattern of fine dots on the printing plate. This fine dot pattern allowed for details that could not be achieved before. For a black and white picture, the dots are only black. For a color picture, the dots will be various colors, using - the four color printing process, cyan, magenta yellow and black.

The dots are only seen in the photo in black white printing, the text is solid ink, unless it had a shade of gray. Before half-tone printing, baseball cards were made using antiquated methods. 1800s cards have actual photographs pasted to cardboard backing. Cards like the Old Judges, Gypsy Queens, and others. Trading cards before the 1800s were handmade lithographs. By handmade I mean the designs were made directly onto the printing plate, a person would use special hand tools to put an image directly onto a printing plate. When you look at these cards they look a little like a color sketch or painting.

While the photograph itself has been around since 1839, it took decades before printers could print realistic reproductions of photographs. A black and white halftone image consists of a single screen. However, in four color process printing, four different screens are used. I will not get into all that, maybe some other time.

The reason it is important to know about half-tone printing, we can tell if it is an original card, or one copied from an already printed card.
This is done by looking at the dot pattern on the printed cards. When you copy a printed card the dots make a special pattern called a “moire” which will distort the accurate rendering of images. Below are two overlaid halftone grids showing a moire. In the above thread # 77 I gave a sample of a baseball card with a moire pattern on it , (Ted Williams) picture.

Now about the printing process and what - does it have to do with what I said about- “This could explain what looks to me some misunderstanding in the Ted Z thread.” There are samples of the back of cards given, that have what looks like dirt or specks on the back of cards, these cards are given as proof that these cards were inserted into loaves of Bond Bread, and because of how the backs look, saying it because of the bread why the cards look like they do. it also goes over the different stock, I will save that for later. No; this is just part of the printing process. It’s what in the trade is called set-off, or pick off. This happens for different reasons, the two main reasons are: the result of too much ink printed on the card, and the printing stack of printed cards were handled too soon, before the cards were totally dry.

The Aaron Robinson cards shown above, thread# 76, I gave an example of an extreme case of set-off. You can see the pick off on the front of the card.

The pictures below show a mild case of set-off; they are also the pictures used to show what the back of the cards look like that were supposedly inserted into Bond Bread. The bottom show two screens over each other that form a “moire”.

[Johnphotoman]

This is so cool, I believe it backs up what I posted in my report # 3. I wish I had discovered it before I posted my report in #3: How baseball cards are printed. Post 298 in Ted Z thread. I have much to say about this thread, but it is why I believe we have so much confusion, it is full of "FAKE NEWS" as Ted said. Sadly some of the fake news comes right from Ted, making his point that he is right and the others are wrong. It's going to take some time but I will explain. Do not get me wrong, all respect goes out to Ted Z, but I believe he got some things wrong. John

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...07%2D21%2D2020

[Johnphotoman]

As evidence comes in: My original opinion is Bond Bread baseball cards should have their own category. Because we could tell them apart from other cards printed in 1947. But the truth I am not sure we can tell what is an original Bond Bread card, or a Sport Star card might be right now. More investigation is needed, looking at the backs is not the answer, paper stock is not the answer, quality of printing is not the answer. I believe the best is to look at the die cut cards and the round corner cards. But this is still up in the air. Maybe we should have a joint category Bond Bread and Sport Star cards. Wait is that what the standard catalog of vintage baseball cards does- with the designation of W571 cards? I will keep on Investigating, asking all who have an opinion or evidence to chime in. As I have said we need a bigger population to work from. John

[Johnphotoman]

We have so much confusion on Bond Bread cards, because of so much misinformation ot there. Just look at what is posted on the Ted Z thread. It looks like some people just posted what they believe. Sadly many people were considered experts - who had first-hand knowledge. One problem I see in that thread, it looks as if you did not agree with the premise of the thread…you did not know what you were talking about and your opinion was wrong.

There was no way anybody could come to an agreement. Too many times people held this belief - it is my way or the highway. There is still very good information in that thread. What I want to do is compile the evidence we already have too new evidence and see if we can come up with a conclusion, at best one most of us when given the facts can accept.

We cannot ignore the fact that we have people who have first-hand knowledge who have collected Bond Bread cards and Sports Star cards first-hand. The problem is their information does not match. There are many different descriptions describing the cards.

I believe I can explain the difference, and why we see so many varieties of cards out there. You just have to look at the facts and compile the evidence. Stay tuned as I try to give live updates on this investigation. Report number # 4 up next. John

[Exhibitman]

Part of the problem with easily analyzing this issue (issues?) is the origin and the assumptions in the conventional nomenclature. Bond Bread didn't make any of these cards, Aarco did. Bond Bread licensed them from Aarco, as is apparent from the many cards, picture packs and photos made from the same images.

Hypothesis #1: Bond Bread commissioned the 13 card set with back printing because they show up nowhere else in the same format.



We know for sure (thanks to some great research out there) that these were issued starting in 1947 with the card shown above first.

We know for sure that the 44 card rounded corners set was issued in Bond Bread packages.



Hypothesis #2: the set of 44 was NOT commissioned by Bond Bread but was licensed to Bond Bread by Aarco. I base this hypothesis on the existence of so many other issues using the same artwork.

We know for sure that the rectangular cards were issued in boxed sets sometime around 1947-1949.



[autograph not original, but try finding a Feller card w/o an autograph]

We know that the artwork was licensed to Elgee to make the perforated two-sided cards:



We also know for sure that the rounded corner cards were obtained and used by other companies for promotions:



Then there are the 'exhibit' cards:



The glossy photos:



The photo pack premiums printed on paper:



All of which support my hypothesis. Aarco tried to milk its work in a variety of products and deals.

The classification and nomenclature of these various issues was erroneously decided on decades ago by Burdick and the publishers of the early guides based on flawed and incomplete information. Modern research and communication tools have clarified things.

Now, the Festberg cards. I believe that Ted did a disservice to the catalog raisonne of the hobby by calling the cards Festberg found "impostors". Yes, they are not "Bond Bread" cards. What they appear to be is either new old stock from an Aarco run that wasn't used or rejects from an Aarco print run. The idea of a counterfeit makes little sense, both practically and physically. Practically speaking, at a time when the originals weren't worth much, why even bother reprinting the commons? If you were going to reprint, wouldn't you stick to Robinson, Musial, etc.? And if you did reprint, why not do DiMaggio? Physically speaking, the cards are not re-screens. if you take a halftone print (card) and you don't have the original art and/or the original plates, the only way to reprint mechanically is to re-shoot using the card as the original. The result is a copy of a copy, so to speak, and is visibly different. I've looked at the Festberg cards and the boxed cards side by side and the fronts of the former are not made from re-shoots of the original cards. They are inferior quality, likely due to the card stock not being up to snuff.

Hypothesis #3: the Festberg find was Aarco printed but rejected due to quality issues and was probably inadvertently stored away rather than trashed.

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, Exhibitman: You have given proof to much of what I have been saying. If you have a copy of the Festberg cards, can you post a picture of the backs, and front. I like to see what paper stock the Festberg was printed on. You will like my next post # 4. It goes into much of what you have just posted. John.

[Johnphotoman]

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category…like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates… many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at…is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

[Johnphotoman]

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category…like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates… many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at…is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

[Johnphotoman]

Abctoo- Posted a good thread related to our conversation, it's worth a look. I do not agree that is was not Arrco company that printed the cards. Thread #246 John
https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D07%2D2020

[Johnphotoman]

To be clear, the above thread mention is a good read, but not totally accurate. I plan to go over what I believe to be wrong with that thread soon, for now just enjoy it. John

[Johnphotoman]

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part one.
From my point of view, the original thread by Ted Z is out of date, and full of
misleading statements. To get to the misleading statements about the
Festberg find, we need to look at some statements made about Bond
Bread in general, and look at the differences between statements made
between Bond Bread and the Festberg find.

As I have said I think we can disqualify certain sets in the old Ted Z thread,
that were called “Festberg” cards, by going over statements made about
cards that were posted there. More on this further down this post. Get
ready butchiet t, this will involve you.

Quotes from Ted Z page 1: Quote #1: “It was the Summer of '47....my
sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread
packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams,a Stan
Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card.”

Quote #2: “These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our
neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we
eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4
Boxers in a complete set”.

Quote #3: “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this
general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or
ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages.
Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were
issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs
have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have
been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters".
(Emphasis mine - as Bond Bread cards).

Then he goes on to say: “Shown here are two cards from the 1949
(unknown) issue (see below) which includes 24 of the BB players depicted
in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also,
many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards
may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set.
However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie
the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue.
A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars)
suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this
col-lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of
'49).”

Those statements above by Ted Z set the stage for the controversy we
have today. Right from the start.

My conclusion and re-cape: Ok, not bad Ted had first hand knowledge; he
collected Bond Bread cards right from loaves of Bond Bread. Look at what
Ted said: “there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a
complete set”. Making up 48 cards in all.

Ted also mentioned what he called a 1949 unknown issue, consistent of 24
of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional
BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were
included. How did he know how many cards were in the unknown set, why
not list them at this time? Also, notice how he explains the set; The 1947
set did not have any movie stars in it. Now get this, the 1949 set had an
additional BB player or 2, who were these players; why not name them?
Then there were also cards in the form of popular movie stars of the era.
Great, how many? And why not tell us how many cards in all - in this
so-called 1949 set? Why not give names at this time. I do not like the fact
that at a later time in the post these facts seem to be given.

Ted then said, "The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the
same firm that printed the 1947 set. They were printed with square corners
on inferior cardboard stock, and are not related to the 1947 Bond Bread
issue."

Ok stay with me, he goes on to say, “A recent find of many of these
SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since
Walker Cooper is depicted in this collection as a NY Giant (Cooper was
traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49).”

Question, does a recent find of square cards, suggests the find happened
in 2009; Since this thread has a date of Mar 2009? Does this imply a recent
find to be say 2000. I wished he gave the date and not said it was recent.
Also notice about this unknown set it is from 1949. It is an unknown set,
but somehow it is given a date for when it was issued. Oh. we did get an
answer as to why the set was given an issued date of 1949…
It has to do with Walker Cooper, I will get to that. Ted said the set consisted
of 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an
additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that
era were included. All good information to have. Just wished he was a little
clearer on the facts.

Pay attention… It is not called the Festberg find, and in fact there is no
mention of the 1980 Festberg find at this time. I do have to ask the question
would a find in 1980 (the Festberg find) be called recent in 2009, some 29
years later.

For now- since there was no mention of the Festberg find, just the unknown
set, suggest there were two different finds, a 1980s find we call “Festberg”
and an unknown set from 1949, found in recent years. Maybe sometime in
2000.

Let’s look at the facts and see if we can figure out these two sets of BB
card finds. Can we separate the two into different groups, or are they both
the same? It does look like Ted was describing one set, an unknown set
and according to him - it was a recent find from the time he posted his
thread, Mar 2009.

Again I have to ask what does recent mean? 5 years, 10 years- ok go as
far as 15 years maybe, but not over 20 years. It does not make sense to
say something is recent that happened over 29 years ago. Simple logic
would say the unknown set of cards were printed before the summer of
1949.

This simple logic implies that the cards were printed 1947-1948. Why would
I say 1947-1948? If Walker Cooper was depicted in this collection as a NY
Giant by the time of 1949 he would have been traded. A 1949 issue does
not make any sense to me...how can one conclude someone was traded in
summer to Cinci, in 1949 but the photo shows Cooper in a NY Giants
uniform, simple logic would say the BB card was made before 1949. Yes,
Cooper played for the New York Giants baseball team from 1946–1949, but
by the time the season of 1949 Cooper was in was in a Cinci uniform.

Ted was right, the two card sets are unrelated. Meaning they were not
made by Bond Bread, but they do have a connection. What did Ted say?
“The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the same firm that
printed the 1947 set.” He got that part right. The two sets were printed by
the Arrco Playing Card company.

Let go over it one more time, Bond Bread did not print their own cards. As
Exhibitman points out in thread #82 of this thread - “Bond Bread didn't
make any of these cards, Aarco did. Bond Bread licensed them from Aarco,
as is apparent from the many cards, picture packs and photos made from
the same images.” And it is a point I have made from the beginning.
One more point, I have always believed that the Collectors & Traders -
Sport Star subject cards had cut cornered edges. Look at the boxes, it sure
does look like the cards have beveled corners. Thet do not look uniform
like round corner cards do.

Now let's have another look at those boxes of Collectors & Traders - Sport
Star subject cards without the first card showing in them.
-called unknown set was printed around the same time as the Bond Bread
cards. We do know that the squared corned cards were issued in boxed sets sometime around 1947-1949. These box sets are what Ted called the unknown set. No mystery here…they were the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects printed by the Aarco company 1947-1949.

I need to point out that Aarco was printing BB cards and the like in 1947
known as Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects, before they
printed any Bond Bread cards as - “Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject”

Notice the 2 boxes with 12 cards in each.
Aarco made 4 boxes with 12 cards in each... that comes to 48 cards, the same number as the:Bond Bread” set, no coincidence, Aarco just produced the same cards for Bond bread.

Do you notice anything different about them? The boxes were die cut with
windows in them to show the first card, the windows are die cut / beveled or
you can say rounded. This tells us the Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject cards had square or rectangle edges…they were not round at all.
I propose or should say the facts tell us that the unknown square cornered
cards that Ted was telling us about…are in fact the squared cornered
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards from 1947-1949.

These would mean that all rounded and die cut cards (beveled) edge cards
all belong to cards that were inserted in Bond Bread. But wait, we were told
there was a difference in the rounded and beveled edge cards. I was in this
camp, I did believe that “only the rounded corner cards were the only ones
that were inserted in the loaves of bread. I believed that’s how we could tell
which cards were Bond Bread. I believed that beveled cards belong to
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards.

Ted's own card post in the very first page of his thread proves that he had
indeed collected right form loves of bread, cards with rounded edges and
beveled edges. See example below. Some look rounded and others look
to be beveled (die-cut).

I explained how die-cut cards have different looking edges as the run goes
on, wear and tear. No one cut them with a pair of scissors, they are no
fakes. Just by the sheer number of die cut cards, no one could produce
that many fakes. Fakes are made for profit - cutting the ends off of the
Sports Star cards would not make you enough profit to go through the effort
to make fake cards, One has to buy cards and then cut them, then try and
resell them at a profit. I am not saying someone has not tried - but there are
way more bigger fish to fry them than wasting your time with small
potatoes. Yes there could be cards out there with scissors edges - but I
don't know how anybody could tell.

I want to make a point about a couple of statements made in the Standard
catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards, 4th Edition. - From the Bond Bread
category it says…“At some point after the original Bond Bread issue, half of
the cards were reprinted in a squared corner, 2 ¼ x3 ½ size on a slightly
different stock for purposes unknown.”

(Half the cards would mean 24 cards). Where did that information come
from? Did you know that Ted Zanidakis( Ted Z) made contributions to the
catalog. It would be nice to see where that statement came from, meaning
who was the person that contributed that part to the Bond Bread category.
Under the Bond Bond category it also says- “A large quantity of these 24
cards was found in a New York warehouse in the 1980s.”
Now I believe that is wrong, everything I have read says the 1980 find was
found in New Jersey. Notice this find was not called the Festberg. It just
says a large quantity of these 24 cards were found in a warehouse in New
York. We have to ask, is this a different find or is it the Festberg find?

In the same paragraph it reads- “To complicate the situation, the squared
Corner cards were illegally counterfeited sometime after 2000, often sold in
the high graded slabs by fraudulent grading companies.
Could these cards found after 2000 be the ones Ted called recent? “A
recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest
a 1949 issue date.” Certainly since Ted post was Mar. 2009, a 2000 card
find would be considered recent to 2009.

Also, if the 2000 cards were illegally counterfeited, and sold by grading
companies, this could explain why I have seen so many forgeries that are
definitely counterfeits in slabs from grading companies.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part two. John

The Images: Photo #1 the two cards from the unknown issue. #2 Notice 2 boxes with 12 cards in each. #3 4 boxes showing the die cut boxes. #4 Show the cards in Ted collection from the first page, notice the corners of the cards they are not all the same.

[Johnphotoman]

Recap of Bond Bread and Festberg cards on what was posted in the Ted Z
thread: All about the edges of the cards (die - cut), the back of the cards,
and the Festberg discovery.

As I have combed through the original thread from back in 2009 - started
by Ted Z; I was shocked to see how much the information was twisted
around to fit an agenda. I was amazed at how so many different quotes
made - were just misquoted later on in the thread to meet with that
agenda.

I do not know if the thread started out to have an agenda, but it sure seems
like it did. As the thread went on, it devolved into someone or someone’s
own point of view. This agenda or point of view single-handedly caused
more controversy on the Bond Bread cards, before there was a thread.
Now I will say, I am glad for that thread, without it we would not have as
much information about the Bond Bread issues. It has given us very good
information. Believe it or not I have gained more from the false information
then from the truth.

What was this point of view (agenda)? Only the cards that Ted and others
had… are the only cards that are the real Bond Bread cards. All others are
fakes, reprints, not printed 1947-1949. Again this is my point of view.
I know this is not a nice thing to say, and Ted Z is not here to defend
himself, but as I laid out the facts; I believe you will see that if you held a
different opinion than the one the thread was promoting… you were wrong,
or just did know what you were talking about. These facts will come right
from the thread, that are not mine, but those who had posted their opinion.

Quote from thread #8 posted 04-04-2009, By: Ted Zanidakis:

“There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original
1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE
cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice”......
1....the 1947 cards are slightly thicker
2....there is a faint gloss on the 1947 cards and not on the other cards
3....the contrast on the 1947 cards is superior to the other cards
4....the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white
color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Take note what Ted Z said, “There is a significant difference in the
cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the
subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards.” Images provided by Ted. Image 1.

Quote from Ted Z, thread #212, 05-14-2020, “As you know, the original
1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24
cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in
your scan has a toned back (as I suspect) it has been faked to look like an
original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.”
images provided by Ted Z. Image 2.

Ted was talking about a post made by Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207,
05-14-2020. Where we do not see the backs, but he is very clear on the
images he provided - “The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find"
have toned backs.”

Question: how did Ted Z know there were 24 cards in the set of Festberg
find? Think about it, I will give an answer later, that is a subject for itself.

Quote from- Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207, 05-14-2020,
“Take a look at the example he shows as an original "Bond
Bread/Homogenized Bread" Jackie Robinson and note the subtle
differences in the cropping of the corners and the image between a Bond
Bread and a "Sports Star Subject". The first example (with white
background) (Bond Bread) is an example posted by Ted.”

“The second is from the ebay lot. (black background). The difference is
clear and evident. The Sports Star Subjects Jackie has cropped corners
which are much more "square" than the Bond Bread exemplar. Also much more of the "Dodgers" can be seen in the Bond Bread card, even when
factoring in the off-set/miscut. These are 100% not the same cards from the
same set, regardless of whether a third party grading company mistakenly
labels them as such.” image 3.

Too bad we did not see the backs of the cards. I do agree that the two
cards are not the same…but not because of the die-cut edges. It is
because I believe the eBay lot to be a counterfeit from copying, not from making another halftone from the original card. I know they are scans
and hard to tell; But luckily the images were enlarged, which shows that the
eBay is not a halftone but looks more like a continuous tone image, like
one you would get from a copier. Look at the enlarged images provided.
Do you see the difference between the two? Images 4,5,6,7.

With image #4 being the eBay fake. Image #5 Teds card showing the halftone dots. Image #6 Teds card, showing dots. Image # 6 eBay card no dots, the dots you do see are from copying, there are no distinct dot patterns.


Let’s go over the differences between a halftone image and a continuous
image. A "halftone" is a printing technique where an image is reproduced
using tiny dots of varying sizes to simulate different shades of color,
creating a continuous tone effect, while a "photocopy" is a simple copy of a
document made using a machine that directly transfers an image onto
paper, typically with a lower resolution and without the complex dot pattern
of a halftone; essentially, a halftone is a specific printing method for
creating realistic images, while a photocopy is just a copy of a document
made with a copier machine.

Depending on the quality of the photocopy machine, a photocopy might
appear slightly less sharp than a high-quality halftone print. A photograph
is considered a continuous tone image, meaning it displays a smooth range
of tones from dark to light, with every possible shade in between, rather
than distinct, separate dot patterns.

Quote #9 Posted By: boxingcardman, 04-04-2009. “Although Primo
Carnera was the world heavyweight champ in the 1930s, technically, the
card in this set is a wrestling card since he is shown in his wrestling garb.
Doesn't make a difference on pricing; he is still collected as a boxer.}
Hate to cause confusion, but the cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 each as
"Sports Star Subjects". I have a scan of the cards in the boxes from some
auction years ago (don't recall which one). The front cards on the boxes are
DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter and Robinson.”

Notice boxingcardman did not post any pictures here, he said, “ I have a
scan of the cards in the boxes from some auction years ago (don't recall
which one). The front cards on the boxes are DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter
and Robinson.”

Quote #11 Posted by Ted Z, 04-04-2009. “ On the contrary....no "confusion"
here, guy. Indeed, confirmation of the SQUARE cards being issued as a
set of their own. It's been my understanding that the SQUARE cards were
1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small boxes. Until now, I have
referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown" issue. Thanks
to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star Subjects"
issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.

Notice that boxingcardman makes no mention of dates for the "Sports Star
Subjects". Only Ted Z gave dates: “It's been my understanding that the
SQUARE cards were 1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small
boxes. Until now, I have referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown"
issue. Thanks to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star
Subjects" issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.”

It is not boxingcardman saying that the "Sports Star Subjects" were not
issued in 1947, it is Ted Z saying that. Why is that, could it be Ted Z
“agenda”, to make the point that the square Sports Star Subjects were
issued in 1949 - 1950.

Ted goes on to say: “Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards. Two of
which are the BB/Movie Star cards....Lou Boudreau/Ingrid
Bergen and Johnny Mize/Victor Mature. Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.”

Now I have a whole other problem in what Ted Z said: About the images he
posted. Ted Z posted 3 square cards that he implies are "Sports Star
Subjects" cards. He goes on to tell us to notice the width of the square
cards.

It might be hard to see the images, but the square cards he posted are
perforated. Image # 8. And in fact have their own destination in the Standard catalog of
Vintage Baseball cards. (“1947 Bond Bread Perforated, Due-Sided.) The
catalog tells us, “The manner of distribution for this variety of the Bond
Bread W571/D305 card is unknown.” Notice that the Due-Sided Perforated
cards are called Bond Bread.

What does Ted Z say, “Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards.” Which he
implies are Sports Star Subject cards. He makes the point that they are
1/16 bigger. But did not tell us… those cards are - W571/D305 Bond Bread
cards. Yes that could be the wrong destination for them, but that is a
discussion for another time.

The catalog does not call these Due-Sided Perforated cards …Sports Star
Subject cards, boxingcardman does not call them Sports Star Subject
cards, (why would he, he did not see them until Ted posted them), that is
Ted doing so. I can not say why Ted calls these W571 perforated cards
Sports Star Subject cards, maybe he just misidentified them. But he did contribute to the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards. Let's just
leave it there.

Note the description from the catalog: “These different in that they have
two, three, or four sides perforated indicating they were issued in sheet
form, Also this group has instead of a blank back, another picture.”
Why did Ted Z not post the backs of the cards, was it because they were
two sided? Or is it because it did not fit with his agenda? The images he
posted are from 1947. That does not fit in his widow of 1949-1950.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part three. John

[steve B]

A few points/things I don't agree with here. Although overall it's pretty good.

My comments in red

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?
I can't imagine the shop I worked for working off a photostat/photocopy as the original The quality of photostats even in 1980 was way too low.

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

I believe it would be possible on cards like these to make a mask from a contact print of the original card which was already screened. It would be hard to get a good negative that lost as little quality as possible but a good photo person could do it.

That assumes offset lithography, which was probably used. Other processes probably wouldn't work well for playing cards, and Aarco wouldn't be likely to invest in an entirely different process just for what was a new product.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.
I agree about the square corner cards. Most likely they just weren't put through the round cornering machine. (I ran one that dated back to the early 1900s at the shop)

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category…like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates… many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

Yes, saving the on press plates for 20+ years didn't happen. They get a bit messed up.
BUT
Again, that assumes offset lithography.
I have plates used to print sports postcards, and could probably still get a print from them but they're from an entirely different process. One that was offset printed from photoengraved plates mounted to wood blocks. Much like typography with an extra step.
It's possible aarco used that process, in which case, those plates would have probably lasted a long time
The shop I was at saved the masks used to make the plates for most jobs for years. Many were scrapped when the Hunts tried to corner silver. But until then most jobs were very reprintable. At least one was reprinted while I was there.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.
Agreed

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at…is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you Steve B - You make very good points. You are right, it is not impossible to make good forgeries. The point I was making is I believe we can rule out the Festburg cards as forgeries, or re-prints from the original plates sometime in the 1970-1980s. Yes you are right a plate can be used over and over, most shops did save their offset plates, but to save one for over 29 years, would be hard. Remember we are talking about Printing from 1947, much different than what we have today. And I cannot say how the cards where actually printed 100%. But the odds are they where printed through offset printing. Thanks John PS. I refer you to KeyMan Collectibles about photo stats.

https://keymancollectibles.com/photo...insonphoto.htm

[Johnphotoman]

Below are three cards from my collection. Two round corner cards and one square corner card. The image in the holder is the one with the whitest back, facing sideways. Just by feeling the two round corner cards you would think the whiter one is thicker, it is also the card that has bevel edges, as opposed to the other one that has more rounded edges, meaning more uniform edges. I used a digital caliper on all the cards, that all came out to be the exact same thickness. I need a new black light, so I did not check them out with one. John

[butchie_t]

John,

"Get ready butchiet t, this will involve you."

Did I miss something in that post. Was I supposed to do something?

I did not see what I was to be 'involved' with.

Cheers....

B. T.

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you butchiet t, no, it is coming, it taking longer to put the information together. I am glad you are reading along. What is your opinion so far?
John

[butchie_t]

I am encouraged by what I have read. But, I am not an influential person in the greater card collecting community.

I would like to see some others here weigh in but also understand that they may be hesitant to post. JMHO.

Keep it coming!

Cheers,

Butch

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I am encouraged by what I have read. But, I am not an influential person in the greater card collecting community.

I would like to see some others here weigh in but also understand that they may be hesitant to post. JMHO.

Keep it coming!

Cheers,

Butch

Thank you, Butch. My hope was others would post, so we could have a bigger pool of information to work off. I am working off my notes and going over the old thread. Trying to put together a coherent understanding of the Bond Bread cards. As I said , I have many questions, I would like answers to. I want others to post their cards, front and back with what they were told they were, or know what they are. Especially those who have bought from Dave Festberg. John

[Johnphotoman]

Disclaimer when I give the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as a reference…I am quoting from the 4th edition. I do not know if any information has changed with new information. Clearly there is some information in the catalog that is out of date. John

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Thank you Steve B - You make very good points. You are right, it is not impossible to make good forgeries. The point I was making is I believe we can rule out the Festburg cards as forgeries, or re-prints from the original plates sometime in the 1970-1980s. Yes you are right a plate can be used over and over, most shops did save their offset plates, but to save one for over 29 years, would be hard. Remember we are talking about Printing from 1947, much different than what we have today. And I cannot say how the cards where actually printed 100%. But the odds are they where printed through offset printing. Thanks John PS. I refer you to KeyMan Collectibles about photo stats.

https://keymancollectibles.com/photo...insonphoto.htm

The process matters.
Offset lithography with the thin aluminum plates - those plates were rarely saved. We piled them up, used them for dustpans, support for bondo on cars, patches for sheds... then when the pile got to be big enough what was left nearly all of them, went to the scrap guy.
How the 1962 Topps plates survived is amazing. I knew the story once but have forgotten.

The other offset - from print blocks or type used very durable "plates" and those would have been saved. Like these, and a couple hockey ones I have


Reprinting from these would be easy.

The way keyman is using photostat is not familiar to me. Photostat was an early term for photocopy from a photocopy machine using the process still used today that uses static electricity to get the toner to stick on the paper.
That's the Xerox process.
Looking it up, the photostat process directly exposed a roll of paper then developed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostat_machine

What they describe is a part of the process of creating the original art to photograph. I guess it's possible they could have photocopied the signature onto a transparency, but with a full print shops resources at hand that would have been doing it the hard way.
Photographing the signature to make a film transparency that would become part of the mask would have been easy.

[Johnphotoman]

steve B, Again you make very good points. When I talked about the photostats and printing plates, I was trying not to get too technical. Most shops I managed did save up the aluminum plates and send them to the scrape yard. If any of these did survive , my guess is they would not be very good to print from, the image quality would not be very good, a point I believe you made. But yes, someone could have old BB printing plates. But plates from 1947 could not be used run re-prints from. John

[Johnphotoman]

How photostats were used in printing. It was done in a dark room using negatives making a print on photostat paper. Much like you make a print of a photo from a negative, it is printed or say imaged onto photo paper. In this case the image was imaged onto photostat paper. That photostat would then be use to make a half-tone negative that was used to make the plate.

It was not a photocopy, but made right from the original image. In this way you could add the name right on to the photostat, thereby making a new negative with no loss of details. The photostat which is just a photo print would then be used to make the BB card. Like the photostat in Keyman article on Jackie Robinson. It has his name on it, it is a photo print from a photostat. I hope this helps. Photostats are photo prints imaged on to photo paper. John, PS one reason why it would be hard to find the original negatives that made the plate, is because they to were scrapped for the silver content in the film.