PWCC - Sorry, Yet Again

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've read enough to know that their actions have been thoroughly investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums. If any of the more serious accusations hold any water whatsoever, then they will be prosecuted. I trust the criminal justice system, for the most part, at least in cases like this. If there is significant wrongdoing by PWCC, we will find out. At that point, I will decide whether or not to continue doing business with them based on those findings. Until then, I will continue to reserve judgment.



Any day now... any day now...

You wrote "Investigated". Would you care to share where the "investigation" has been completed, or is that just the latest banter from your buddies in Lake Oswego, or is it Tigard? I cant keep them straight!



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You wrote "Investigated". Would you care to share where the "investigation" has been completed, or is that just the latest banter from your buddies in Lake Oswego, or is it Tigard? I cant keep them straight!



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole.

Just Asking Questions?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Two things have me concerned about doing business with them in the future:

1) They would auction the same cards on ebay over and over and over again. Someone would "win" the auction and the card would immediately go up for auction again. Coincidentally, they then got kicked off of ebay amidst accusations of shill bidding. I don't need the FBI to tell me that something was amiss.

2) Their new website sucks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

I don't know what the outcome will be, there are a host of considerations that go into decisions whether to seek to indict, but I certainly know what he told me personally. And I know the law. I am not pretending anything.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something?

I'm speechless.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I'm speechless.

There is an ignore option so you only see someones post when someone quotes them.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bnorth

There is an ignore option so you only see someones post when someone quotes them.

But then you are missing the fun!

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by bnorth

There is an ignore option so you only see someones post when someone quotes them.

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

But then you are missing the fun!

Wow, Ben is in on this thread?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Wow, Ben is in on this thread?

You are far from the only one saying that.

[Johnny630]

If a indictment and criminal conviction of PWCC does happen then you will see major hit to the current prices as a whole for this industry. If nothing happens which I continue to think will be the case we continue to March on.

Is the juice worth the squeeze ? I’d say no. The court of public opinion and eBay has dealt with them, that’s enough for me.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

The before and after photos themselves could have been altered, don't you know.
And if PSA graded the cards, how can you possibly blame Brent?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The before and after photos themselves could have been altered, don't you know.

And if PSA graded the cards, how can you possibly blame Brent?

If only Leon could add emogis for...

Hear no evil
See no evil
Speak no evil

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Yes, I read those. Nearly all, if not all of those posts. The majority of the cards posted certainly were trimmed or altered in some way, I agree. What I'm waiting on is the evidence that PWCC themselves did this.

Originally Posted by perezfan

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

Show me one post where I proclaimed expertise in this area. Just one. I'll give you $10k if you can find just one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, I read those. Nearly all, if not all of those posts. The majority of the cards posted certainly were trimmed or altered in some way, I agree. What I'm waiting on is the evidence that PWCC themselves did this.




Show me one post where I proclaimed expertise in this area. Just one. I'll give you $10k if you can find just one.

They didn't have to do it, if they knew they were trimmed or altered but sold them anyway without disclosure, they're just as culpable. If you've read as much as you claim you would already understand this because I have explained it ad nauseum and probably others have too. And Brent certainly did some of the chemical stuff himself.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, I read those. Nearly all, if not all of those posts. The majority of the cards posted certainly were trimmed or altered in some way, I agree. What I'm waiting on is the evidence that PWCC themselves did this.




Show me one post where I proclaimed expertise in this area. Just one. I'll give you $10k if you can find just one.

OK perhaps not expertise in this specific area... but expertise in the general hobby of card collecting would preclude any rational collector (or an educated and well-versed collector such as yourself) from venturing into the treacherous waters of Lake Oswego. Is that good enough for the $10K ?

[Bigdaddy]

I too don't know what the outcome of any FBI or other law enforcement investigation will be, but I have to make a personal decision whether to spend my money with PWCC or not.

And at this point, I have all the evidence I need to make that decision. And so has everyone else. If you continue to deal with them, then you have concluded that they are worthy of your business. And if you don't, then you've come to the other conclusion. For me, I see no reason to do business with them.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I too don't know what the outcome of any FBI or other law enforcement investigation will be, but I have to make a personal decision whether to spend my money with PWCC or not.

And at this point, I have all the evidence I need to make that decision. And so has everyone else. If you continue to deal with them, then you have concluded that they are worthy of your business. And if you don't, then you've come to the other conclusion. For me, I see no reason to do business with them.

Innocent until proven guilty...sure but given the extent of the allegations, the long history of questionable business practices (one of which was confirmed by eBay), the piles of evidence on BO, Brent's many proclamations up until lawyering up...I prefer to just avoid him. Too many other places to buy cards. Where there is smoke there is fire.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

Hate to tell you Snowman, but Ted/Republicaninmass has a very good point in regards to your earlier response where you stated, "I've read enough to know that their actions have been THOUROUGHLY investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums." I know you are very intelligent and quite articulate so, when using the word "thouroughly", you are stating that the FBI has in fact completely investigated every detail in regards to these accusations, which most normal, intelligent people would take to mean that the FBI has nothing more to look at and investigate in this regard (ie: They ARE done investigating). But then in a later thread you stated you never said they completed the investigation, and that you didn't know if they were done with it or not. So you've made completely conflicting statements within a couple of posts of each other. I can fully and easily see how people are being confused by some of what you're saying, and therefore questioning it. So be kind when telling others to go back because they didn't properly read what you wrote, it can also apply to yourself as well.

Another point in regards to your statements and ongoing debate with several others on here regarding the treatment and opinions towards PWCC, I saw you state that though late to the party, you feel you've pretty much seen and read all the applicable posts out there, and how you feel up to date on what has transpired so far in regards to PWCC and all the accusations. You have mentioned that there is really no definitive proof of any wrong doing on PWCC's part that has actually been presented to the hobby community as a whole yet, and therefore are withholding any final determination as to their guilt or innocence, which I can fully understand and agree with under those circumstances.

Now, it hasn't been spefically brought up in this thread, but it has previously been brought up by others on this forum that they had in the past communicated directly with Brent at PWCC about a lot of past activity and consignments he allegedly accepted and sold on behalf of at least one particularly well known card doctor. And if my memory serves me correctly, when the issues and examples of all the card doctoring taking place in the hobby started being exposed on Blowout, that was when Brent started getting questioned and allegedly admitted to having taken consignments and worked with this known card doctor in the past, but supposedly was telling those then questioning him that he was no longer doing business with that person anymore. Now I don't remember the exact details, but it was then reported on this forum that it was somehow found out or determined that Brent/PWCC was in fact still working with this known card doctor after all, despite his statements that he wasn't anymore. Do you remember coming across and reading that info on this forum as well, and if so, would that in your thinking be positive evidence that Brent/PWCC was knowledgeable after all in regards to the acceptance and continued selling of items from a known card doctor? I guess the question would be, why would someone tell people they no longer took consignments from a known card doctor if in fact they still were?

I would think that as the Blowout guys kept exposing altered cards being sold that it would be pretty easy for who ever was selling them to have their people look up who the consignor(s) was/were. And once discovering such info, do you think they should maybe confront them about it and stop doing business with repeat consignors of such exposed, altered cards? I'm pretty confident people were and still are trying to contact and make whoever is/was selling such doctored cards aware of that fact, based on numerous posts and comments of people on this and other forums. So I doubt any such major sellers can plead total ignorance to this issue. And I can also understand your stance that maybe these sellers aren't directly involved in actually altering any cards, or in the improper grading of such cards by TPGs totally missing/ignoring the alterations. But does that then excuse all these sellers in your mind from not being complicit to some extent? It is kind of hard (really pretty much impossible) for any major seller to not be aware of what is going on in the hobby in regards to alterations. So if they aren't somehow complicit, why aren't they all being totally transparent with everyone as to what they are doing to stop dealing with altered cards?

Or maybe it is already too late and hobby purists, like many are here on Net54, are the old and fading part of the hobby who's thinking and actions are slowly being transformed by the incoming younger generations, investors, registry addicts, people who do not mind card restoration, and so on. In that case we may be nothing more than a dwindling minority and no action will ever come from our objections as the rest of the hobby community accepts things we do not want to. And if that turns out to be the case, maybe card doctors and alterations become the norm and an accepted part of the hobby, even if a TPG grades it without recognizing any such alterations. With no single, uniform, recognized standards in the hobby, it is going to be difficult for anyone to be found guilty of anything for relying upon someone else's opinion. And this may be another reason why AHs and sellers aren't saying/doing much about alterations and card doctors, as they see the changes and acceptance coming more and more in the future. And they realize that there is already so much altered and doctored material out there in graded slabs that it is impossible to ever go back and correct it all, so they don't. They just sit tight and be quiet as more and more old time purist collectors go away over time. Who really knows anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah Bob I posted everything I knew about this when the scandal first broke and Gary's name came to light, including emails I've seen and personal conversations. I don't feel like doing it again every time some skeptic pops up. I also explained why knowingly selling altered cards without disclosure, even if someone else altered them, could be mail/wire fraud.


One other point -- if the feds decide not to prosecute you, it doesn't mean they think you're innocent, necessarily. Sometimes the rules of evidence make it difficult to prove something in court even though it's clearly true, and that can factor into the decision. Prosecutors don't like to bring cases they don't view as highly likely to succeed.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah Bob I posted everything I knew about this when the scandal first broke and Gary's name came to light, including emails I've seen and personal conversations. I don't feel like doing it again every time some skeptic pops up. I also explained why knowingly selling altered cards without disclosure, even if someone else altered them, could be mail/wire fraud.


One other point -- if the feds decide not to prosecute you, it doesn't mean they think you're innocent, necessarily. Sometimes the rules of evidence make it difficult to prove something in court even though it's clearly true, and that can factor into the decision. Prosecutors don't like to bring cases they don't view as highly likely to succeed.

Yeah Peter, I remember you were one of the people posting about it, and wondered if Snowman wouldn't have to admit there might be complicity based on those circumstances alone. Just didn't know if he had come across that info before and included that in his thinking.

Also wanted to poke Snowman a bit for what he said. He's always telling others to go back and re-read what he wrote and then chastises them for not paying attention to what he said. Well this time the tables are turned and he wrote and stated something and then said he didn't. He'll probably argue with me that I'm wrong or it wasn't what he meant, at which point I'll just tell him to look up the definition of the word "thouroughly", and read his own statement again. I figured I'd help out some of those he debates a lot with by good naturedly pointing out hes not always infallible. LOL


As for the wire/mail fraud possibility, this whole issue got me thinking that the government may do nothing because they're not sure they could convict someone in the case of cards that may have been doctored. As you said, the FBI may know that some parties were purposely doctoring cards to get better grades, but may not go ahead and file any charges. They know they'd have to convince a jury, probably made up of mostly non-card collecting people, that a crime was committed. But exactly what crime was being committed?

I can easily see a defense attorney arguing and asking what mail/fraud occurred in the case of an altered card being slabbed by a TPG, and then sold on Ebay. Assuming the card was a real one to begin with, it wasn't a fake or counterfeit, so no fraud there. And it has been said many times on here that a person can do anything they want to a card they own, including trimming, soaking, erasing marks, etc., none of which is a crime of any kind. And the submission of a doctered/altered card to an independent TPG is likewise not a crime either. And the TPGs reviewing a submitted card for authenticity and grading results in their rendering an opinion as to what they believe the condition of a card is, and whether they think it authentic or not. And the key word is "opinion", because that is all a TPG gives. If they don't detect any alterations or issues with an altered card, have they committed any fraud or crime, again, no. And if that altered card is then consigned to an AH or online consignment seller, they just list and sell what is given to them and rely upon the opinion of the TPG who authenticated and graded the card, since the TPG is probably one of the respected and relied upon TPGs in the hobby. People look to their opinions as to a card's authenticity and condition, not the consignor or seller. So if the TPG says a card is real and don't detect any alterations, is it legally up to a seller/owner to say otherwise that they disagree with a TPG's opinion, I'm not so sure it is. Now it may not be viewed by some as ethically or morally right, but that doesn't mean it still may be legally okay.

And here's where I can see the prosecution having a problem convincing a jury filled with non-card collecting peers that someone committed fraud of any kind. First off, an altered card can still be authentic, so no fraud from that standpoint. Now the issue of condition and potential alteration of a card is the opinion reflected in the grade a TPG gives a card. And if you want to prove fraud, wouldn't you have to be able to prove that the TPG knowingly misgraded a card and purposely ignored alterations, probably working in union with the seller and/or consignor to knowingly dupe the public? But how do you prove such complicity between TPGs, sellers and their consignors? I sincerely doubt they'd write letters or send texts or emails to one another talking about how they are in cahoots. In fact, I can actually see the card doctors hoping some of their grading submissions do get rejected for alterations (as probably do the TPGs as well), as that makes it look all the more like the TPGs are doing their job and catching altered cards. Makes the ones not being detected all the more believable as legit, unaltered cards. So the card doctors can just consign altered cards to a seller, and maybe have the seller submit them to a TPG for grading then. Nicely helps to keep all the parties separate from one another and maybe adds an extra layer of protection then as the card doctor doesn't directly sell altered cards to unsuspecting buyers and actually mail them as well. The TPGs don't always deal directly with card doctors then if the seller handles the grading submission, or so I assume, and I'm also guessing no one in this threesome (card doctor/seller/TPG) asks or offers to tell any of the others outright if cards being consigned for sale or submitted for grading were doctored or altered. That way the seller and TPG can both have plausible deniability as to whether a card was altered or not, and the card doctor can merely say they relied on an independent TPG's opinion as to a card's condition, and left it up to the seller they consigned a card with to list and sell it as they, the seller, saw fit. Plus, think of all the other errors that TPGs routinely seem to make, especially some of the really egrgious ones that often get pointed out here on our forum. That would go a long way IMO to persuading a jury that altered cards, along with many other errors, often slip through a TPG's quality control system to wind up in improperly graded holders, but are not necessarily indicative of any illicit or illegal scheme or collusive activity to intentionally grade and slab altered cards.

And if that wasn't already enough to confuse and befuddle a jury, I'd then start pointing out to them how the issue ultimately comes down to how a card is graded, but that there isn't one overall, agreed upon set of grading and alteration standards for the entire hobby. Each TPG has their own unique way they grade and detect issues, and even those standards for individual TPGs can easily be shown to have changed over the years. And the same can be shown for individual collectors how they also have vastly different ideas of what a card should grade, and what they do or don't consider as alterations, be it soaking, erasure of marks, spooning out creases, possibly trimming oversided borders, and even full-blown restorations. Heck, I can see this restored T206 Wagner in the current SCP auction being a perfect example to show to a jury why restored cards have significant value, regardless of grade, especially if it ends up selling for more than some non-restored Wagners. And of course there's the now infamous Gretzky Wagner, still residing in an incorrect PSA 8 holder. But at the same time, if it were to suddenly come up for sale I imagine it would likely go for the highest ever price for a single baseball card of all time, easily eclipsing all the recent single card record sales that have occurred since the pandemic started. That alone could possibly sway some jurors to not find fault with other altered cards and how they end up being graded. And with all the other problems and issues we've been been going through lately, the last thing the government wants and needs is to spend a ton of time and resources on a long, drawn out trial over baseball cards, only to have it end in aquittal or a hung jury. This is definitely not the same as legal issues from shill bidding.

So I have no clue either if we ever will see charges brought for sales of alleged altered cards. Only time will tell.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hate to tell you Snowman, but Ted/Republicaninmass has a very good point in regards to your earlier response where you stated, "I've read enough to know that their actions have been THOUROUGHLY investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums." I know you are very intelligent and quite articulate so, when using the word "thouroughly", you are stating that the FBI has in fact completely investigated every detail in regards to these accusations, which most normal, intelligent people would take to mean that the FBI has nothing more to look at and investigate in this regard (ie: They ARE done investigating). But then in a later thread you stated you never said they completed the investigation, and that you didn't know if they were done with it or not. So you've made completely conflicting statements within a couple of posts of each other. I can fully and easily see how people are being confused by some of what you're saying, and therefore questioning it. So be kind when telling others to go back because they didn't properly read what you wrote, it can also apply to yourself as well.

Another point in regards to your statements and ongoing debate with several others on here regarding the treatment and opinions towards PWCC, I saw you state that though late to the party, you feel you've pretty much seen and read all the applicable posts out there, and how you feel up to date on what has transpired so far in regards to PWCC and all the accusations. You have mentioned that there is really no definitive proof of any wrong doing on PWCC's part that has actually been presented to the hobby community as a whole yet, and therefore are withholding any final determination as to their guilt or innocence, which I can fully understand and agree with under those circumstances.

Now, it hasn't been spefically brought up in this thread, but it has previously been brought up by others on this forum that they had in the past communicated directly with Brent at PWCC about a lot of past activity and consignments he allegedly accepted and sold on behalf of at least one particularly well known card doctor. And if my memory serves me correctly, when the issues and examples of all the card doctoring taking place in the hobby started being exposed on Blowout, that was when Brent started getting questioned and allegedly admitted to having taken consignments and worked with this known card doctor in the past, but supposedly was telling those then questioning him that he was no longer doing business with that person anymore. Now I don't remember the exact details, but it was then reported on this forum that it was somehow found out or determined that Brent/PWCC was in fact still working with this known card doctor after all, despite his statements that he wasn't anymore. Do you remember coming across and reading that info on this forum as well, and if so, would that in your thinking be positive evidence that Brent/PWCC was knowledgeable after all in regards to the acceptance and continued selling of items from a known card doctor? I guess the question would be, why would someone tell people they no longer took consignments from a known card doctor if in fact they still were?

I would think that as the Blowout guys kept exposing altered cards being sold that it would be pretty easy for whover was selling them to have their people look up who the consigner(s) was/were. And once discovering such info, do you think they should maybe confront them about it and stop doing business with repeat consigners of such exposed, altered cards? I'm pretty confident people were and still are trying to contact and make whoever is/was selling such doctored cards aware of that fact, based on numerous posts and comments of people on this and other forums. So I doubt any such major sellers can plead total ignorance to this issue. And I can also understand your stance that maybe these sellers aren't directly involved in actually altering any cards, or in the improper grading of such cards by TPGs totally missing/ignoring the alterations. But does that then excuse all these sellers in your mind from not being complicit to some extent? It is kind of hard (really pretty much impossible) for any major seller to not be aware of what is going on in the hobby in regards to alterations. So if they aren't somehow complicit, why aren't they all being totally transparent with everyone as to what they are doing to stop dealing with altered cards?

Or maybe it is already too late and hobby purists, like many are here on Net54, are the old and fading part of the hobby who's thinking and actions are slowly being transformed by the incoming younger generations, investors, registry addicts, people who do not mind card restoration, and so on. In that case we may be nothing more than a dwindling minority and no action will ever come from our objections as the rest of the hobby community accepts things we do not want to. And if that turns out to be the case, maybe card doctors and alterations become the norm and an accepted part of the hobby, even if a TPG grades it without recognizing any such alterations. With no single, uniform, recognized standards in the hobby, it is going to be difficult for anyone to be found guilty of anything for relying upon someone else's opinion. And this may be another reason why AHs and sellers aren't saying/doing much about alterations and card doctors, as they see the changes and acceptance coming more and more in the future. And they realize that there is already so much altered and doctored material out there in graded slabs that it is impossible to ever go back and correct it all, so they don't. They just sit tight and be quiet as more and more old time purist collectors go away over time. Who really knows anymore.

Agreed...Breaker, breaker Snowman good buddy. You are an apologist for one of the biggest and well known BANDIT's in the industry. Love, Smokey (as in you blow Smokey Up Brent Mastro's ass)

https://youtu.be/nKo2Bz8izXY?t=13

VROOOOOOOM Snowman: I'll blow some Benzene out of my ass for you you today, good buddy...