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  #1  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:06 PM
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Default OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

This is a huge topic of debate, yet fun as I love hearing opinions as to who else should be considered for the Hall.

I am and always will be a monstrous supporter of Jimmy Ryan, and I'm saddened he still isn't considered. But, I digress, who else do you think should be in the Hall (outside of Jackson and Rose)?

This list is for intended on players no longer eligible.

My list is:

Jimmy Ryan (for sure)
Joe Start (borderline)
Dale Murphy (little past borderline)
Bill Dahlen (close to my magic vote)
Dick Allen (borderline, more towards no)
Lou Whitaker (past borderline)
Ted Simmons (close)
Joe Torre (close)
Riggs Stephenson (I would vote for him)

The list will go on, these are the ones I can think of briefly. Because I mentioned them, doesn't mean I think they should be in (except a few), I think we should take a little longer look.

It would be fun to also look at active modern players:

Pujols (Yes)
Miguel Cabrera (Yes)
Jeter (Yes)
Kershaw (looking good)
Mauer (if he can put up a few more good years, Yes)
Trout (way early, but easily on pace)
A-Rod (Yes)
Carlos Beltran (few more years)
Matt Holliday (see Beltran)
David Wright (No)
Longoria and Tulo (stay healthy then maybe)
Felix Hernandez (see Kershaw)
Giancao Stanton (will hit 600+ to get in)
Justin Upton (consistency issues, but if he reverts to MVP form, chances good)
David Ortiz (if he gets in so should Edgar)
Torii Hunter (no, close but very fun to watch him for years)
Alfonso Soriano (see Beltran)
Josh Hamilton (no, damn drugs)
Joe Nathan (no)
Adam Dunn (he will hit 500, but not really 'elite', coin toss for me, but I like him)
Starlin Castro (Yes, he will get 3k+ hits)
Jimmy Rollins (close, please get to 3k)
Ichiro (Yes)
Chase Utley (stay healthy, decent shot)
Ryan Howard (see Utley, pray for 500 HR's, not likely)
Prince Fielder (get back to elite, hit 500+ then in)
Johan Santana (love him, but unfortunately no)
Morneau (if only no concussion, but no)
Peavy (no, loved him in SD)
Lincecum (was good, no)
Freeman, Harper, Machado (too early, health issues except Freeman)
Jayson Heyward (all the tools, no clue what is wrong, Liriano syndrome)
Raul Ibanez (no, thought career was over 7+ years ago)
Mark Buehrle (no, still surprises me)
David Price (need more)
Stephen Drew (no)

Let's make this fun!






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  #2  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:12 PM
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Barry Bonds
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  #3  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:15 PM
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Larry Doyle
Edgar Martinez
Vern Stephens (maybe)
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  #4  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:15 PM
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I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:24 PM
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Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Thurman Munson
George Van Haltren
Bob Caruthers


PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:27 PM
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Oppps totally missed the outside of Jackson & Rose part! Btw Joe Torre is already on the Hall Of Fame.

Honestly I am a huge fan of a lot of the players mentioned (Murphy, Simmons & Whitaker) but I can't agree that any of them are Hall Of Famers.

Oliva was a lifetime .300 hitter & had a great stretch of about 8 years, but over all I don't see his career numbers being HOF worthy. Am I missing something with him?

Last edited by cardsfan73; 06-23-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:27 PM
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...and Tony Oliva
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drazz5 View Post
Barry Bonds
No. Never.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:45 PM
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I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.
No way should A-Rod even be considered. And that's coming from a Yankee's fan.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.
Pretty sure I disagree with you, but I also have no problem with that or with your overall sentiment/opinion. This is a very decisive issue, and I have trouble saying either side is wrong. Different people have very different POVs on this.

Without getting into the details of my logic (typing from a mobile device... But may add more later), I think the toughest thing with your position is- where do you draw the line? Do you have to have tested positive and/or been disciplined by MLB's policy? If so, you would be rewarding a lot of people who were just better at beating tests (can't help but be suspicious of Pujols... Based not only on appearance, but on things I've heard from a couple pretty inside sources... And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught). Can you omit people based on circumstantial evidence alone (this seems unfair and Piazza comes to mind)? It's just very tough, and then what bugs me more is that popularity begins to play too big a role... And many writers seem to revel in their role as gate keeper. I don't want to blast writers in general, but there are surely a lot of weasels in that bunch too.

A few "yes" for HOF--

Mussina given I think 250 should be the new 300... Hoping Hudon can rack up a few more to get serious consideration.

Crime Dog McGriff. This guy was so underrated. He hit 30 a year for over a decade, starting when 30 was a lot.. And for many years was one of the top 2-3 power hitters in the game. 490+ is close enough.

Also think Bonds/Clemens/etc should be there eventually.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:47 PM
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If there was a Hall OF Really Really Good Players a lot of these guys would be in! As far as modern guys I think Vlad Guerrero has a good shot.

Last edited by cardsfan73; 06-23-2014 at 08:49 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies View Post
This is a huge topic of debate, yet fun as I love hearing opinions as to who else should be considered for the Hall.

I am and always will be a monstrous supporter of Jimmy Ryan, and I'm saddened he still isn't considered. But, I digress, who else do you think should be in the Hall (outside of Jackson and Rose)?

This list is for intended on players no longer eligible.

My list is:
Joe Torre (close)
Huh?? Torre was unanimously elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame by the 16-member Veterans Committee on December 9, 2013. He will be inducted on July 27, 2014
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  #13  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:50 PM
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Not as a player


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Old 06-23-2014, 08:50 PM
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Sorry for not clarifying


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Old 06-23-2014, 08:50 PM
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Stephen Drew? Adrian Beltre is probably more eligible than 75% of that modern list, yet isn't accounted for.


Nap Rucker
Marty Marion
Omar Vizquel
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Albert Belle
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.

Last edited by CobbvLajoie1910; 06-23-2014 at 08:59 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-23-2014, 09:00 PM
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None of the above.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:01 PM
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Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbvc View Post
Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".
Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:10 PM
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Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.
Yeah, I know. I said 40 because of 40 man rosters. Another barrier to entry in my HOF. No voting for players who were playing when you were alive.
Especially in the voting for MLB players of the 20th Century, I always thought recent players had major bias in favor, to the point of not being able to take that team seriously. (I'm referring to the team the fans and MLB voted on in 1999 or so).
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:14 PM
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Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:15 PM
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It's funny, on this board it seems to me there is the exact opposite bias, the romantic overrating of old time players relative to modern players.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-23-2014 at 09:15 PM. Reason: pathetic grammar
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:20 PM
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I am confused, are we talking about players who belong in the Hall Of Fame? Or players we like?

A lot of good ball players being mentioned here but I have yet to see a name mentioned (that is no longer eligible) who belongs in the Hall. Just my opinion though.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:22 PM
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. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.
I'm with you on that sentiment, and in many more instances than Klein (Mr McGriff included.. Do seriously only 11% think he deserves the nod? And if so, did they pay attention in the late '80's and '90's?).

In recent years, hearing many of these writers' interviews has been a nauseating experience. I do think a lot of these guys really know the game, but there seem to be nearly as many that love the opportunity to get on a soap box and grandstand (think photo ops during senate hearings). When I hear or read the bad ones, I often think of Max Mercy doing everything he could to discredit Roy Hobbs in the Natural... A guy who never played the game, and probably at heart loves to destroy boyhood idols because he's secretly jealous of all the attention these jocks got when he was was kid. This of course is not representative of all, but Max often comes to mind, and I have lost a lot of respect for many of them over the past several yearS. (though do love Scott Ostler from the SF Chron)

Last edited by itjclarke; 06-23-2014 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Re word
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  #24  
Old 06-23-2014, 09:24 PM
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If based strictly on batting:

Pete Browning
Babe Herman
Riggs Stephenson

Other players for consideration:

Baby Doll Jacobson
Charlie Grimm
Emil Meusel
Bob Meusel
Stuffy McInnis
Bob Veach
Bob Johnson

Pitchers:

Tommy John
Tony Mullane
Jim McCormick

Both player and pitcher:

Kid Gleason (over 1900 hits and 138 wins)
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:31 PM
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None of the above.
LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batter67up View Post
Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

How about what they did to Santo?

writers are like lawyers- an unfortunate necessity.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
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writers are like lawyers- an unfortunate necessity.
Them's fightin words on this board!

Given that my wife and 4 of my 6 siblings/siblings in laws have JDs, I have to say I concur though
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:34 PM
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LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.
The Indians had some great hitting teams in the 90s, but it seemed Omar was always the one who torched the Red Sox.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:39 PM
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A better question is who is in the HOF who shouldn't ? About 1/3 the inductees.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:49 PM
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Default McCartney -- Let em in

Omar Vizquel
Tommy John
T Oliva
Mattingly Don
Luis Tiant
Marion
Open the Hall,
Let em in, in, in
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-23-2014 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910 View Post
Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.
The question is if he hit 7 more HRs would he be in the Hall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's funny, on this board it seems to me there is the exact opposite bias, the romantic overrating of old time players relative to modern players.
This is pretty true. If Rickey Henderson played in the 1910s he'd be better then Ty Cobb.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:06 PM
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Larry Bowa , first comes to mind .
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:09 PM
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Pete Rose
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:12 PM
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Jack Morris should be in.

And as regards your list of current players, how did you leave off Verlander?
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:15 PM
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OT, but I think that if you flipped teams and put Nap Rucker on the Giants and Rube Marquard on the Dodgers, the other guy is in the HOF (and probably with much better career numbers than Marquard).

Bill Dahlen, Sherry Magee and maybe Ginger Beaumont are all better than many players already enshrined.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
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Jack Morris should be in.

And as regards your list of current players, how did you leave off Verlander?
The way he's been pitching lately, I wouldn't include him.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:38 PM
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John Wesley "Jack," "Pebbly Jack" Glasscock

Nicknamed "Pebbly Jack" for his habit of scrutinizing the infield for small stones, typically pocketing them, the practice helped him to avoid the bad-hop ground balls which more regularly afflicted other infielders; fielding averages of the era rarely exceeded .900 among shortstops. He led the National League in fielding percentage seven times and in assists six times (without a glove until 1890), with both marks remaining league records until Ozzie Smith surpassed them in the 1980s; he also led the NL in double plays four times and in putouts twice. He won the 1890 batting title with a .336 average for the New York Giants and led the league in hits twice; in his final season he became the sixth major league player to make 2,000 hits. He was the first player to appear in over 600 games as a shortstop, and ended his career with major league records for games (1,628), putouts (2,821), assists (5,630), total chances (9,283), double plays (620) and fielding percentage (.910) at the position. When he retired he ranked fifth in major league history in games (1,736) and at bats (7,030), seventh in total bases (2,630) and eighth in doubles (313).

Glasscock left the major leagues with a .290 career batting average, 2040 hits, 27 home runs, 63 runs, 825 runs batted in and 98 triples. He was one of the most difficult players of the 19th century to strike out, doing so just once in every 33 at bats. In 1887 and 1890 he struck out only eight times. It would be 35 years before Joe Sewell bettered his 1890 average of 64 at bats per strikeout. He played a notable role in the advancement of defensive tactics, being one of the first shortstops to use signals indicating which infielder would cover second base on steal attempts, and also one of the first to back up throws to the second baseman.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:48 PM
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And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught).
Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:58 PM
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Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.
Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:18 PM
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I've always felt that Cecil Travis should be in the HOF. He had fantastic numbers (.327 lifetime batting average) , before he went into the military for WWII and lost almost 4 prime years. Keep in mind that he was a shortstop and was never the same player after the war due to injuries sustained during combat. Ted Williams called him one of the five best left handed hitters he ever saw.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:39 PM
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As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:39 PM
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The question is if he hit 7 more HRs would he be in the Hall.



This is pretty true. If Rickey Henderson played in the 1910s he'd be better then Ty Cobb.

I dunno...he would have been pretty young...
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:41 PM
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Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).
I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:42 PM
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Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame... The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.
NFL Hall of Fame is ridiculous. Each year there's a long list of very very deserving guys who may never get in. Tim Brown comes to mind, and I know he's nowhere near the most blatant example.

ADDING: I guess it's easier to add a few deserving guys, than to pull out some of the undeserving ones. So in that case the NFL's issue seems enviable compared to MLB.

Another MLBer I'd love to see in- Lefty O'Doul. I know he didn't have a long career, and his work in the PCL and popularizing baseball in Japan would probably need to be considered in order to give him the final nudge (rather than playing career alone), but would love to see him in.

Last edited by itjclarke; 06-23-2014 at 11:47 PM. Reason: adding
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:44 PM
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Jack Morris should be in.

And as regards your list of current players, how did you leave off Verlander?

I used to be a big advocate of Jack Morris. The argument was always that his ERA was to high. Research finds that, yes, his career figure of 3.90 would be the highest in the Hall - but I was willing to overlook this because of what a big game pitcher he was.

The truth: His lowest single season ERA was 3.05 and he performed poorly in his last post-season.

He was a very good ace of some great teams...but Trammell deserves more consideration.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:49 PM
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Pete Rose

I would definitely put BART GIAMOTTI in before rose. He had a lot more respect for the game. rose believed and still believes his is better than the game.

As has been said many times before, there are signs in EVERY clubhouse stating that gambling on baseball is illegal - if it was done today, it should be treated just as harshly...but I worry that we have become a too-forgiving, too-permissive society. Our standards should remain high....higher than rose.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:57 PM
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Barry Bonds

No way - Poster boy for those feeling entitled. When he and Griffey, Jr. came to the career fork-in-the-road, we all know who went what direction and only one of those leads to upstate New York.

He already got his applause...he refused to wait.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:02 AM
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I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.

Clemens and Belle fall into the Bonds catagory
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:07 AM
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Default The Cobra

Dave Parker for sure!! Was as good if not better than Rice & Dawson who are already in. Take a look!

7 All-Star (1977, 19791981, 1985, 1986, 1990)
2 World Series champion (1979, 1989)
NL MVP (1978)
3 Gold Glove Award (19771979)
3 Silver Slugger Award (1985, 1986, 1990)
All-Star Game MVP (1979)
2 NL batting champion (1977, 1978)
Home Run Derby winner (1985)

Batting average .290
Hits 2,712
Home runs 339
Runs batted in 1,493
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:15 AM
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amazes me how for students of the games history we get all sanctimonious about PED users. We act like this was developed as a gentlemen's game and played by men of honor and integrity. Very far from the actual beginnings and the vast majority of the early players of this game. We always suppose this guy or that guy would not have taken PED's we do not know this but we do know many have said and done things that are certainly not upstanding. The hall of fame is to honor the history of the game and no matter how hard we try to pretend these people are part of the history of the game. I am also sorry but I heard almost noone think the players were clean during the 1998 HR chase and the seasons after it. We all pretty much knew we just did not care than all of sudden when the AAron record was in jeopardy we all cared. Ratings were booming baseball was the talk of the sports world and the executives etc of the sport all knew what was going on. They did not care why should the players. Couple this with the fact that the sport deemed it illegal but had no penalties, I do not see it as just to all of a sudden impose this PED users arent allowed in attitude. This leads to a player like Bagwell who looks like PED user to me getting more votes than Clemens or Bonds because we are more positive they took. This process has become a joke and so has the hall of fame. Restore it to a museim to tell the sports history and leave the sanctimony at the door. If just taking these drugs made you an all time great why was Jason Giambi an MVP and allstar and Jeremy Giambi barely a bench warmer?

Last edited by glynparson; 06-24-2014 at 04:17 AM.
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